Old radio dial

Post by Scott
Looking at an old radio dial (now my screensaver) I see on the VHF
Band 'Home' [R4] has the highest frequency then 'Third' [R3] then
'Light' [R2]. I wonder why they did it this way round. If the Home
Service and Light Programmes were the most popular, why create a
voyage through the Third Programme for retuning?

A very interesting question. I suppose the two logical orders are:

- R2, R3, R4 (in ascending order of station number Radio 2, Radio 3,
Radio 4)

- R2, R4, R3 (or R4, R2, R3) (in descending order of number of listeners
to channel)

It's interesting that Radio 3 was termed "The Third Programme" before
"Light Programme" (R2) and "Home Service" (R4) terms had been abolished.
I'm surprised it didn't have a name that alluded to its classical music
content - eg "The Classical Programme" or "The Heavy Programme" (as
distinct from "The Light Programme"!)

I imagine that if the frequencies were being allocated for the first
time nowadays, they would be allocated with R1 lowest, then R2, then R3,
and R4 highest. Obviously those are blocks of frequencies, rather than
one specific country-wide frequency for each station.

Scott

2023-10-04 16:17:49 UTC

I am sure someone will jump in with a fuller history, but AIUI it did
not start as a classical music station. It carried music, plays and
talks in the evening (Third Programme), schools and educational, sport
on Saturday afternoons, music during the day (Music Programme) and was
also called 'Network Three' to reflect this mix.

Brian Gaff

2023-10-05 10:06:08 UTC

I don't remember the network three label at all, but I do remember the
classical buffs moaning about inclusion of Jazz for some time, and
experimental music seemingly played by objects not intended for music and
unorthodox ways of playing conventional ones, not to mention the avente
Gururde stuff what was basically a lot of bits spliced together, a bit like
the Beatles Revolution 9, which I note has just been remixed into Dolby
Atmos.
I always found that sort of entertainment quite entertaining but music it
was not.
Brian
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charles

2023-10-04 16:30:03 UTC

but it also broadcast Test March Special which is hardly "Classical" - or
is it?

--
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"I'd rather die of exhaustion than die of boredom" Thomas Carlyle

Mark Carver

2023-10-04 16:34:33 UTC

Post by charles

Post by NY
It's interesting that Radio 3 was termed "The Third Programme" before
"Light Programme" (R2) and "Home Service" (R4) terms had been abolished.
I'm surprised it didn't have a name that alluded to its classical music
content - eg "The Classical Programme" or "The Heavy Programme" (as
distinct from "The Light Programme"!)

but it also broadcast Test March Special which is hardly "Classical" - or
is it?

Some Marches use classic music though ?

--
Mark
Please replace invalid and invalid with gmx and net to reply.

Brian Gaff

2023-10-05 10:11:43 UTC

Ha ha.
I was not aware that the third did test matches. Long wave seems to have
been the preserve for that for many years, as well as the early Shipping
forecast. I still find it odd they are going to scrap such a large station
with a very big coverage, and yes I know there are some fill in stations,
but never the less it should really be much better than it is. In the early
days of TV it was timebase interference, now its more junk from rogue psus
and internet dongles etc that cause the interference.
Brian
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Post by charles

but it also broadcast Test March Special which is hardly "Classical" - or
is it?

Some Marches use classic music though ?
--
Mark
Please replace invalid and invalid with gmx and net to reply.

James Heaton

2023-10-05 17:23:40 UTC

Post by Brian Gaff
Ha ha.
I was not aware that the third did test matches. Long wave seems to have
been the preserve for that for many years, as well as the early Shipping
forecast.

Test Match Special was on 1215 MW until the BBC lost the frequency,
roughly 1992?

Then a brief and unhappy period on R3 FM frequencies, until someone had
the bright idea of using 198LW, roughly 1994?

The last TMS on 198LW was the final Australia test in July 2023.

James

Scott

2023-10-05 17:55:13 UTC

On Thu, 5 Oct 2023 18:23:40 +0100, James Heaton

Post by Brian Gaff
Ha ha.
I was not aware that the third did test matches. Long wave seems to have
been the preserve for that for many years, as well as the early Shipping
forecast.

Test Match Special was on 1215 MW until the BBC lost the frequency,
roughly 1992?

AIUI this was after R3 medium wave (648 kHz and earlier 1548 kHz)
closed and R3 became an FM only service. Until then TMS was a R3
opt-out. (1548 kHz was lost earlier than 648 kHz to be handed over to
independent local radio.)

Post by James Heaton
Then a brief and unhappy period on R3 FM frequencies, until someone had
the bright idea of using 198LW, roughly 1994?

Are you sure it wasn't on R3 AM (1215 kHz)?

Post by James Heaton
The last TMS on 198LW was the final Australia test in July 2023.

No more cricket before 31 March 2024?

James Heaton

2023-10-05 18:45:16 UTC

Post by Scott
On Thu, 5 Oct 2023 18:23:40 +0100, James Heaton

Post by Brian Gaff
Ha ha.
I was not aware that the third did test matches. Long wave seems to have
been the preserve for that for many years, as well as the early Shipping
forecast.

Test Match Special was on 1215 MW until the BBC lost the frequency,
roughly 1992?

Post by James Heaton
Then a brief and unhappy period on R3 FM frequencies, until someone had
the bright idea of using 198LW, roughly 1994?

Are you sure it wasn't on R3 AM (1215 kHz)?

It was on R3MW 1215 until around 1992, when the frequency was lost and
R3 became FM only.

I think there was one year it was R3FM with disgruntlement from both
cricket and music fans.

Post by James Heaton
The last TMS on 198LW was the final Australia test in July 2023.

No more cricket before 31 March 2024?

Plenty - we got hammered by NZ in the opening game of the world cup
today. At least 8 more world cup games to go (on today's performance,
probably only 8...) Plus West Indies series around Christmas.

I think they decided to go out with a bang at the end of the Ashes. It
was announced at every drinks break through the summer.

James

Scott

2023-10-05 18:54:31 UTC

On Thu, 5 Oct 2023 19:45:16 +0100, James Heaton

Post by Scott
On Thu, 5 Oct 2023 18:23:40 +0100, James Heaton

Post by Brian Gaff
Ha ha.
I was not aware that the third did test matches. Long wave seems to have
been the preserve for that for many years, as well as the early Shipping
forecast.

Test Match Special was on 1215 MW until the BBC lost the frequency,
roughly 1992?

Post by James Heaton
Then a brief and unhappy period on R3 FM frequencies, until someone had
the bright idea of using 198LW, roughly 1994?

Are you sure it wasn't on R3 AM (1215 kHz)?

It was on R3MW 1215 until around 1992, when the frequency was lost and
R3 became FM only.
I think there was one year it was R3FM with disgruntlement from both
cricket and music fans.

This makes sense now. R4 moved to long wave in 1978. I agree with
your surprise that TMS did not immediately go to 198 when 1515 went to
Virgin but maybe they thought the mainland Europe audience for R4
might not appreciate it. The audio quality must have come as a
surprise for cricket fans. Was it in stereo?

Post by James Heaton
The last TMS on 198LW was the final Australia test in July 2023.

No more cricket before 31 March 2024?

Plenty - we got hammered by NZ in the opening game of the world cup
today. At least 8 more world cup games to go (on today's performance,
probably only 8...) Plus West Indies series around Christmas.
I think they decided to go out with a bang at the end of the Ashes. It
was announced at every drinks break through the summer.

I think you are correct. I was confused by the announcement that
opt-outs will now continue until March 2024.

The interesting question will be what happens if the electricity
industry has not moved away from LW switching by then?

Mark Carver

2023-10-05 19:12:24 UTC

Post by Scott
This makes sense now. R4 moved to long wave in 1978. I agree with
your surprise that TMS did not immediately go to 198 when 1515 went to
Virgin but maybe they thought the mainland Europe audience for R4
might not appreciate it. The audio quality must have come as a
surprise for cricket fans. Was it in stereo?

No, getting a stereo matched pair audio line from each cricket ground
would have cost a fortune. TMS had/has a tiny budget.

--
Mark
Please replace invalid and invalid with gmx and net to reply.

JMB99

2023-10-04 17:04:32 UTC

Post by charles
but it also broadcast Test March Special which is hardly "Classical" -
or is it?

But that and other sport came later, initially it was Light, Third and
Home with the Home being Welsh Home, Scottish Home and Northern Ireland
Home (I think).

Scott

2023-10-04 17:10:31 UTC

Post by charles
but it also broadcast Test March Special which is hardly "Classical" -
or is it?

But that and other sport came later, initially it was Light, Third and
Home with the Home being Welsh Home, Scottish Home and Northern Ireland
Home (I think).

Wikipedia is ambiguous on this point:

When it started in 1946, the Third Programme broadcast for six hours
each evening from 6.00 pm to midnight, although its output was cut to
just 24 hours a week from October 1957, with the early part of weekday
evenings being given over to educational programming (known as
"Network Three"). The frequencies were also used during daytime hours
to broadcast complete ball-by-ball commentary on test match cricket,
under the title Test Match Special".
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/BBC_Third_Programme

If TMS was not there from the start, where was it?

Robin

2023-10-04 19:18:43 UTC

Post by charles
but it also broadcast Test March Special which is hardly "Classical" -
or is it?

But that and other sport came later, initially it was Light, Third and
Home with the Home being Welsh Home, Scottish Home and Northern Ireland
Home (I think).

When it started in 1946, the Third Programme broadcast for six hours
each evening from 6.00 pm to midnight, although its output was cut to
just 24 hours a week from October 1957, with the early part of weekday
evenings being given over to educational programming (known as
"Network Three"). The frequencies were also used during daytime hours
to broadcast complete ball-by-ball commentary on test match cricket,
under the title Test Match Special".
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/BBC_Third_Programme
If TMS was not there from the start, where was it?

TMS as such was not broadcast until 1957. Before that it slept
alongside Arthur and Merlin.

--
Robin
reply-to address is (intended to be) valid

Scott

2023-10-04 19:40:37 UTC

Post by charles
but it also broadcast Test March Special which is hardly "Classical" -
or is it?

But that and other sport came later, initially it was Light, Third and
Home with the Home being Welsh Home, Scottish Home and Northern Ireland
Home (I think).

TMS as such was not broadcast until 1957. Before that it slept
alongside Arthur and Merlin.

That explains it. Nothing until 6 pm at the start.

JMB99

2023-10-04 20:07:56 UTC

TMS as such was not broadcast until 1957. Before that it slept
alongside Arthur and Merlin.

Before then there seems to have just been a summary on Radio 2

TMS appears to have just been a short programme, not the endless one
they do now.

Easy to check with the BBC Programme Index.

Robin

2023-10-04 20:59:48 UTC

TMS as such was not broadcast until 1957. Before that it slept
alongside Arthur and Merlin.

Before then there seems to have just been a summary on Radio 2
TMS appears to have just been a short programme, not the endless one
they do now.

AIUI there was "Test Match" but not "Test Match Special" before the
ball-by-ball commentary that started in 1957; the "Special" being added
in recognition of the fact coverage combined slots in the Light
Programme with the "Special Service" on the Third's wavelengths.

Post by JMB99
Easy to check with the BBC Programme Index.

Indeed.

--
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reply-to address is (intended to be) valid

Brian Gaff

2023-10-05 10:13:27 UTC

Down in the west country, the only station many could pick up was home
service on Medium wave for ages, and there was some regional news on that,
mostly about farming topics.
Brian
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Post by charles
but it also broadcast Test March Special which is hardly "Classical" - or
is it?

But that and other sport came later, initially it was Light, Third and
Home with the Home being Welsh Home, Scottish Home and Northern Ireland
Home (I think).

JMB99

2023-10-04 17:40:03 UTC

This article seems to appear in many newspapers. I have tried to extra
some bits but might be a bit disjointed. Worth reading the whole article.

The cable mentioned was laid the late 1930s North from London for
telephone traffic but it was found to be ideal for Meaconing so taken
over for that.

Nottingham Journal - Tuesday 14 May 1946
Image © Reach PLC. Image created courtesy of THE BRITISH LIBRARY BOARD.

Where the Faults Are Radio Reception
THE B.B.C. to-day is opera-ting 69 broadcast transmitting stations, two
long wavers. 26 medium wavers. 38 short wavers, and three on the
ultra-short waves. One long wave transmitter and three on the medium
waves are being used for the European service, the short wavers cover
the rest of the outside world, leaving one long waver and 23 medium
wavers for the home services.

It is strange that with such an array of equipment, complaints about
unsatisfactory reception are as frequent as ever. Where Is the fault ?
Mr. Leslie Hayes. Chief of the B.B.C.’s Engineering Information
Division, gives me the answer.

"We have never claimed*’ he said, “to provide a good solid signal In all
parts of the country, not even with one programms B.B.C. stations can be
heard in all parts, but not always with that constancy and strength that
we accept as satisfactory. We are very near perfection with the Light
Programme in daylight, covering 98 per cent, of the country with our
long and medium wave transmissions. After darkness, this area is reduced
to 94 per cent."

Blyth News - Thursday 23 May 1946

Then there is to be a "third programme" which. for want of a better. may
be known by that name. It Is to be artistic and cultural In content. It
was promised for this month but does not appear likely until the autumn.
Wavelengths are the trouble. The B.B.C. is using all those wavelengths
allocated to it by international agreement: it is using more, having
poached a couple from European operations. Two of the B.B.C.
wave-lengths are still being used for medium wave transmissions to
Europe and until these are released or some other arrangement can be
made the third programme cannot begin.

TELEVISION PROSPECTS
To secure anything like a national coverage for this new programme the
transmitters will have to be synchronised., and, if the long waver at
Ottringham, Yorks. becomes available the setup will be almost identical
with that new existing in the Light programme.

In television the prospects are even less satisfying. London is to
have its sound and vision service back on June 7 — the pro-vinces coming
later, much later.

When the co-axial cable between London and Birmingham was laid just
before the war it was hoped this might be available for relaying
television signals to the Midlands and later to the North. The cable has
been extended during the war but the Post Office is making such
intensive use of it for telephone circuits that there is no hope of it
being used for television. The B.B.C. has been driven to exploring other
methods and a radio link with the provinces now seems certain.

Brian Gaff

2023-10-05 10:00:18 UTC

Yes, when BBC were experimenting with Stereo, you only needed the sound from
the BBC tv and the 3rd program on an am medium wave radio. What it did not
do of course is to make the phase relationships very reproducible by the
listener. I used to get up in the early mornings to hear trains chugging
though the living room, and elephants trumpeting as the move back and
fourth.
I do not recall any music being tested.

Brian
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- R2, R3, R4 (in ascending order of station number Radio 2, Radio 3, Radio
4)
- R2, R4, R3 (or R4, R2, R3) (in descending order of number of listeners
to channel)
It's interesting that Radio 3 was termed "The Third Programme" before
"Light Programme" (R2) and "Home Service" (R4) terms had been abolished.
I'm surprised it didn't have a name that alluded to its classical music
content - eg "The Classical Programme" or "The Heavy Programme" (as
distinct from "The Light Programme"!)
I imagine that if the frequencies were being allocated for the first time
nowadays, they would be allocated with R1 lowest, then R2, then R3, and R4
highest. Obviously those are blocks of frequencies, rather than one
specific country-wide frequency for each station.

Roderick Stewart

2023-10-05 10:58:54 UTC

I recall one that included a pipe band marching about in an open
field, where I could hear the sound of the drums reverberating off
buildings or perhaps trees some distance away. It gave a real
impression of the shape of the place.

Rod.

Post by Brian Gaff
Yes, when BBC were experimenting with Stereo, you only needed the sound from
the BBC tv and the 3rd program on an am medium wave radio. What it did not
do of course is to make the phase relationships very reproducible by the
listener. I used to get up in the early mornings to hear trains chugging
though the living room, and elephants trumpeting as the move back and
fourth.
I do not recall any music being tested.
Brian

jon

2023-10-07 09:41:53 UTC

I recall one that included a pipe band marching about in an open field,
where I could hear the sound of the drums reverberating off buildings or
perhaps trees some distance away. It gave a real impression of the shape
of the place.
Rod.

Post by Brian Gaff
Yes, when BBC were experimenting with Stereo, you only needed the sound
from the BBC tv and the 3rd program on an am medium wave radio. What it
did not do of course is to make the phase relationships very
reproducible by the listener. I used to get up in the early mornings to
hear trains chugging though the living room, and elephants trumpeting as
the move back and fourth.
I do not recall any music being tested.
Brian

That is a bat's idea.

Ashley Booth

2023-10-06 07:36:03 UTC

Post by Brian Gaff
Yes, when BBC were experimenting with Stereo, you only needed the
sound from the BBC tv and the 3rd program on an am medium wave radio.
What it did not do of course is to make the phase relationships very
reproducible by the listener. I used to get up in the early mornings
to hear trains chugging though the living room, and elephants
trumpeting as the move back and fourth. I do not recall any music
being tested.
Brian

I remember hearing the play Under Milkwood by Dylan Thomas.

--

Mark Carver

2023-10-04 16:19:02 UTC

What's odd is that the order, Light, Third, Home, was put in place in
1955, 12 years before the three stations were rebranded (more or less)
as R2, 3, 4 !

--
Mark
Please replace invalid and invalid with gmx and net to reply.

Scott

2023-10-04 16:37:55 UTC

On Wed, 4 Oct 2023 17:19:02 +0100, Mark Carver

What's odd is that the order, Light, Third, Home, was put in place in
1955, 12 years before the three stations were rebranded (more or less)
as R2, 3, 4 !

The Home Service and Light Programme started immediately after WW2 and
Third Programme followed in 1946. The Third Programme was very much
seen as a minority station for the posh people. When the decision was
made in 1955, why put what was probably the most listened to programme
first, the least listened to second and the Home Service that I
thought was the flagship (and varied by region) third in the ordering?
Anyone commuting between Home and Light as many did using a mechanical
dial would need to navigate their way through the spectrum occupled by
the Third. I merely wondered if there is any logic in this order.

Mark Carver

2023-10-04 16:40:53 UTC

Post by Scott
On Wed, 4 Oct 2023 17:19:02 +0100, Mark Carver

What's odd is that the order, Light, Third, Home, was put in place in
1955, 12 years before the three stations were rebranded (more or less)
as R2, 3, 4 !

Perhaps the idea was that they'd stumble across the Third Prog (and like
it), whereas normally they wouldn't ?

--
Mark
Please replace invalid and invalid with gmx and net to reply.

Scott

2023-10-04 16:57:58 UTC

On Wed, 4 Oct 2023 17:40:53 +0100, Mark Carver

Post by Scott
On Wed, 4 Oct 2023 17:19:02 +0100, Mark Carver

What's odd is that the order, Light, Third, Home, was put in place in
1955, 12 years before the three stations were rebranded (more or less)
as R2, 3, 4 !

Perhaps the idea was that they'd stumble across the Third Prog (and like
it), whereas normally they wouldn't ?

An early form of trails then?

I wondered that myself but after temptation had been resisted the
first 20 times, I think it would become increasingly unlikely anyone
would be tempted thereafter.

J. P. Gilliver

2023-10-04 23:12:43 UTC

Post by Scott
On Wed, 4 Oct 2023 17:40:53 +0100, Mark Carver

Post by Scott
On Wed, 4 Oct 2023 17:19:02 +0100, Mark Carver

[]

Post by Mark Carver
Perhaps the idea was that they'd stumble across the Third Prog (and like
it), whereas normally they wouldn't ?

The same thought occurred to me: I have absolutely no evidence for it,
but with "Inform, Educate ..." ...

Post by Scott
An early form of trails then?
I wondered that myself but after temptation had been resisted the
first 20 times, I think it would become increasingly unlikely anyone
would be tempted thereafter.

Depends what the encountered. The 21st time might be something they'd
actually heard somewhere else, and/or actually liked.

--
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Sarcasm: Barbed ire

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Roderick Stewart

2023-10-05 07:57:49 UTC

On Wed, 04 Oct 2023 17:37:55 +0100, Scott

Post by Scott
The Home Service and Light Programme started immediately after WW2 and
Third Programme followed in 1946. The Third Programme was very much
seen as a minority station for the posh people. When the decision was
made in 1955, why put what was probably the most listened to programme
first, the least listened to second and the Home Service that I
thought was the flagship (and varied by region) third in the ordering?
Anyone commuting between Home and Light as many did using a mechanical
dial would need to navigate their way through the spectrum occupled by
the Third. I merely wondered if there is any logic in this order.

There definitely seems to have been logic to the spacing between them,
which for any particular transmitter is 2.2MHz, with the channels
always being in the same order. This facilitated the design of VHF
radio tuners with the channels being selected with a three way switch.

I recall a tuner of this type made by Rogers, which had an internal
master tuner to adjust it for the appropriate region, but a three way
rotary switch as a user control on the front. Tuning an FM receiver
was thought to be more difficult than tuning an AM one because you
have to tune for minimum distortion rather than maximum output so this
may have been an attempt to relieve the user of this complication.

Then local radio started, and the plan fell to pieces.

Rod.

JMB99

2023-10-05 11:58:17 UTC

Post by Roderick Stewart
There definitely seems to have been logic to the spacing between them,
which for any particular transmitter is 2.2MHz, with the channels always
being in the same order. This facilitated the design of VHF radio tuners
with the channels being selected with a three way switch.

It was chosen deliberately, can't remember the details but I think it
was to reduce the effects of any intermods.

Woody

2023-10-05 14:00:08 UTC

Post by Roderick Stewart
There definitely seems to have been logic to the spacing between them,
which for any particular transmitter is 2.2MHz, with the channels
always being in the same order. This facilitated the design of VHF
radio tuners with the channels being selected with a three way switch.

It was chosen deliberately, can't remember the details but I think it
was to reduce the effects of any intermods.

If the whole band was split as 2.2MHz spacing it would avoid any birdies
on the standard IF of 10.7MHz.

But it wasn't.......

charles

2023-10-05 15:00:03 UTC

Post by Woody

Post by Roderick Stewart
There definitely seems to have been logic to the spacing between them,
which for any particular transmitter is 2.2MHz, with the channels
always being in the same order. This facilitated the design of VHF
radio tuners with the channels being selected with a three way switch.

It was chosen deliberately, can't remember the details but I think it
was to reduce the effects of any intermods.

If the whole band was split as 2.2MHz spacing it would avoid any birdies
on the standard IF of 10.7MHz.
But it wasn't.......

It got bigger when the emergency service got moved away - but that was in
dribs and drabs - no opportunity for proper planning

--
from KT24 in Surrey, England - sent from my RISC OS 4té²
"I'd rather die of exhaustion than die of boredom" Thomas Carlyle

2023-10-05 21:03:51 UTC

Post by Roderick Stewart
There definitely seems to have been logic to the spacing between them,
which for any particular transmitter is 2.2MHz, with the channels
always being in the same order. This facilitated the design of VHF
radio tuners with the channels being selected with a three way switch.

I'd never examined the exact frequencies used by any given transmitter,
so I'd never noticed that R2, R3 and R4 are always 2.2 MHz apart.

For me, FM tuning is a matter of tuning for *any* output - there is a
very narrow band as you go from hiss to station to hiss. With modern
synthesiser tuning, you are adjusting in discrete steps (0.5 MHz for
VHF) and with my car radio if I set it to (for example) 89.05 or 89.15
instead of 89.1, I get no signal. The tuner in my hifi system seems to
be a bit more forgiving and will give *some* output (albeit distorted)
for +/- 0.5 MHz either side of the nominal frequency.

AM tuning is adjusting for minimum distortion where your radio's IF
stage sits over the top of the signal with no clipping of one sideband
or the other.

Going slightly off-topic, why is it that some TV multiplexes are on
slightly offset frequencies? For example, Belmont uses frequencies (in MHz):

482 PSB1
506 PSB2
530 PSB3
545.75 COM4 (rather than 546)
490 COM5
513.75 COM6 (rather than 514)

and crustal Palace, its "evil twin" (in terms of interference during
periods of abnormal propagation), uses

490 PSB1
514 PSB2
545.75 PSB3 (rather than 546)
506 COM4
482 COM5
529.75 COM6 (rather than 530)

I presume it is to avoid co-channel with a different transmitter, but is
the 0.25 MHz going to make all that much difference?

Interesting that Belmont and Crystal Palace use the same frequencies but
not for the same multiplexes. Was that done to avoid creating a
single-frequency network if the data happened to be identical for the
same mux from two transmitters - is the interference less if the signal
is different?

2023-10-05 21:08:55 UTC

Post by NY
with my car radio if I set it to (for example) 89.05 or 89.15
instead of 89.1, I get no signal. The tuner in my hifi system seems to
be a bit more forgiving and will give *some* output (albeit distorted)
for +/- 0.5 MHz either side of the nominal frequency.

It's not a matter of the more modern car radio muting for no signal,
whereas the 1990s vintage tuner on my hi-fi system not having muting,
because I get hiss rather than muted sound if I'm out by 0.5 MHz.

Mark Carver

2023-10-06 07:43:11 UTC

Post by Roderick Stewart
There definitely seems to have been logic to the spacing between them,
which for any particular transmitter is 2.2MHz, with the channels
always being in the same order. This facilitated the design of VHF
radio tuners with the channels being selected with a three way switch.

I'd never examined the exact frequencies used by any given transmitter,
so I'd never noticed that R2, R3 and R4 are always 2.2 MHz apart.

Really !? I've used it since being a child, only ever needed to
memorise R2's frequency :-) I seem to recall it was something stipulated
originally by the GPO ?

Post by NY
529.75 COM6 (rather than 530)
I presume it is to avoid co-channel with a different transmitter, but is
the 0.25 MHz going to make all that much difference?

Where did you get those offset values from ? UK Spec DTT used/(uses ?)
+/-167 kHz offsets, and I'm not sure, but I think they were only used to
'steer' a DTT mux away from an adjacent analogue transmission ?
Obviously that requirement ceased in 2012.

Post by NY
Interesting that Belmont and Crystal Palace use the same frequencies but
not for the same multiplexes. Was that done to avoid creating a
single-frequency network if the data happened to be identical for the
same mux from two transmitters - is the interference less if the signal
is different?

No. The choice of mux allocation is down to predicted audience coverage
for that given frequency, with PSB 1 getting 'first dibs'

In fact they discovered in 2020 that PSB 3 from Bilsdale, had slightly
better coverage than PSB 1, so the frequencies (21/27) were swapped

It's got nothing to do with creating SFNs during a lift, apart from the
SI not matching, anything beyond 20 miles or so is essentially seen as
interference, even if it's the same mux (because you're outside the
Guard Interval)

--
Mark
Please replace invalid and invalid with gmx and net to reply.

2023-10-06 19:24:18 UTC

Post by NY
529.75 COM6 (rather than 530)
I presume it is to avoid co-channel with a different transmitter, but
is the 0.25 MHz going to make all that much difference?

I got them from https://ukfree.tv/transmitters/tv/Belmont and
https://ukfree.tv/transmitters/tv/Crystal_Palace

OK, on there the frequencies are quoted as 529.8 etc, which I *assumed*
was 529.8 rounded to one decimal place. But 530-0.167=529.833 would
round to the same value at one DP.

I should have checked the values on my PVR. I use TV Headend software on
a Raspberry Pi, with DVB-T2 tuners, and Belmont's COM4 is 545.833 MHz.

My error in the value of the offset :-(

But it looks as if the offsets are still being used, long after the
demise of analogue TV.

Post by NY
Interesting that Belmont and Crystal Palace use the same frequencies
but not for the same multiplexes. Was that done to avoid creating a
single-frequency network if the data happened to be identical for the
same mux from two transmitters - is the interference less if the
signal is different?

On Belmont, I find that COM4 is dramatically worse than any of the other
muxes, even those of the same power. I imagine that propagation varies
with frequency, and COM4 is the highest frequency of the six muxes. Also
my aerial may have lower gain at higher frequencies. Certainly it's the
first mux to start producing dropouts at times of poor reception - which
is why I make sure that if I need to record several programmes at the
same time, I use satellite for channels that are on COM4 on terrestrial,
and use terrestrial for recordings that are on a stronger, less
error-prone mux.

Post by Mark Carver
It's got nothing to do with creating SFNs during a lift, apart from the
SI not matching, anything beyond 20 miles or so is essentially seen as
interference, even if it's the same mux (because you're outside the
Guard Interval)

Ah, I didn't know that. Matching the SI and having a guard interval
sound like good precautions for reducing the effect of interference on
the mux data that is retrieved.

J. P. Gilliver

2023-10-06 22:38:31 UTC

In message <***@brightview.co.uk> at Fri, 6
Oct 2023 20:24:18, NY <***@privacy.net> writes
[]

Post by NY
But it looks as if the offsets are still being used, long after the
demise of analogue TV.

[]
Presumably, if all was working, nobody thought it worth the effort - and
risk of something going wrong - of changing it.

--
J. P. Gilliver. UMRA: 1960/<1985 MB++G()AL-IS-Ch++(p)***@T+H+Sh0!:`)DNAf

The first banjo solo I played was actually just a series of mistakes. In fact
it was all the mistakes I knew at the time. - Tim Dowling, RT2015/6/20-26

Mark Carver

2023-10-07 12:02:47 UTC

Post by NY
529.75 COM6 (rather than 530)
I presume it is to avoid co-channel with a different transmitter, but
is the 0.25 MHz going to make all that much difference?

Where did you get those offset values from ? UK Spec DTT used/(uses ?)
+/-167 kHz offsets, and I'm not sure, but I think they were only used
to 'steer' a DTT mux away from an adjacent analogue transmission ?
Obviously that requirement ceased in 2012.

I got them from https://ukfree.tv/transmitters/tv/Belmont and
https://ukfree.tv/transmitters/tv/Crystal_Palace

Oh, FFS UK Free is a pile of out of date, and inaccurate cack

--
Mark
Please replace invalid and invalid with gmx and net to reply.

2023-10-09 16:16:15 UTC

Post by NY
529.75 COM6 (rather than 530)
I presume it is to avoid co-channel with a different transmitter,
but is the 0.25 MHz going to make all that much difference?

Where did you get those offset values from ? UK Spec DTT used/(uses
?) +/-167 kHz offsets, and I'm not sure, but I think they were only
used to 'steer' a DTT mux away from an adjacent analogue transmission
? Obviously that requirement ceased in 2012.

I got them from https://ukfree.tv/transmitters/tv/Belmont and
https://ukfree.tv/transmitters/tv/Crystal_Palace

Oh, FFS UK Free is a pile of out of date, and inaccurate cack

What is the best accurate and up-to-date reference site that specifies
the contents of each multiplex, and the mux frequencies for a given
transmitter?

Mark Carver

2023-10-10 16:34:19 UTC

Post by NY
529.75 COM6 (rather than 530)
I presume it is to avoid co-channel with a different transmitter,
but is the 0.25 MHz going to make all that much difference?

Where did you get those offset values from ? UK Spec DTT used/(uses
?) +/-167 kHz offsets, and I'm not sure, but I think they were only
used to 'steer' a DTT mux away from an adjacent analogue
transmission ? Obviously that requirement ceased in 2012.

I got them from https://ukfree.tv/transmitters/tv/Belmont and
https://ukfree.tv/transmitters/tv/Crystal_Palace

Oh, FFS UK Free is a pile of out of date, and inaccurate cack

What is the best accurate and up-to-date reference site that specifies
the contents of each multiplex, and the mux frequencies for a given
transmitter?

Start here:-

https://www.freeview.co.uk/corporate/platform-management/channel-listings-industry-professionals

I can tell you with authority that the mux frequency data for each Tx is
kept bang up to date on mb21

--
Mark
Please replace invalid and invalid with gmx and net to reply.

2023-10-11 01:29:22 UTC

Post by NY
What is the best accurate and up-to-date reference site that specifies
the contents of each multiplex, and the mux frequencies for a given
transmitter?

Start here:-
https://www.freeview.co.uk/corporate/platform-management/channel-listings-industry-professionals
I can tell you with authority that the mux frequency data for each Tx is
kept bang up to date on mb21

Interesting that the reception predictor on freeview.co.uk (and on other
sites such as Wolfbane and JavaJive's site) say that my preferred
transmitter and/or strongest signal is from Bilsdale.

Walking around my village just west of Bridlington, I think just about
every aerial is pointing south at Belmont rather than north-west to
Bilsdale. I wonder whether that is because aerial fitters have found
empirically that Belmont is a better signal, or because Yorkshire people
prefer their local news programmes to come from Hull rather than Newcastle.

It would be interesting to see how the signal strength from Bilsdale
compares - but that would mean temporarily rotating my aerial almost 180
degrees, just to satisfy my curiosity.

J. P. Gilliver

2023-10-11 10:21:46 UTC

[]

Post by Mark Carver
Oh, FFS UK Free is a pile of out of date, and inaccurate cack

What is the best accurate and up-to-date reference site that
specifies the contents of each multiplex, and the mux frequencies for
a given transmitter?

Start here:-
https://www.freeview.co.uk/corporate/platform-management/channel-listing
s-industry-professionals

Thanks. That tells me (AFAICT) I should receive all channels, from the
Heathfield transmitter, but not what (real) channels they're on.

Post by Mark Carver
I can tell you with authority that the mux frequency data for each Tx
is kept bang up to date on mb21

I couldn't find anywhere on freeview.co.uk that led me to mb21.

--
J. P. Gilliver. UMRA: 1960/<1985 MB++G()AL-IS-Ch++(p)***@T+H+Sh0!:`)DNAf

Old professors don't fade away - they just lose their faculties.

Andy Burns

2023-10-11 11:15:25 UTC

<https://www.freeview.co.uk/corporate/platform-management/channel-listings-industry-professionals>

Thanks. That tells me (AFAICT) I should receive all channels, from the
Heathfield transmitter, but not what (real) channels they're on.

Click on the "detailed view" link.

Andy Burns

2023-10-11 11:23:17 UTC

<https://www.freeview.co.uk/corporate/platform-management/channel-listings-industry-professionals>

Thanks. That tells me (AFAICT) I should receive all channels, from the
Heathfield transmitter, but not what (real) channels they're on.

Click on the "detailed view" link.

I notice that does show a few offsets, e.g.

sutton coldfield BBC-B 40+
sutton coldfield ARQ-B 39+
belmont SDN 30-
sandy heath BBC-B 21+

J. P. Gilliver

2023-10-11 12:26:03 UTC

<https://www.freeview.co.uk/corporate/platform-management/channel-list
ings-industry-professionals>

Thanks. That tells me (AFAICT) I should receive all channels, from
the Heathfield transmitter, but not what (real) channels they're on.

Click on the "detailed view" link.

I'd actually got it from sb21, but thanks - I followed "Detailed
transmitter information for industry professionals" on freeview.co.uk,
and got channel information
(https://www.freeview.co.uk/help/coverage-checker/detailed-view) -
though easy to miss, as the detailed strips for each transmitter are
below a summary table. Under each transmitter (e. g. Heathfield), it
tells me three channels for each multiplex, under headings N, S, and M,
which apparently mean Channel, Served, and Marginal. I _presume_ it
means N is Heathfield and S and M are relays. The squares for S and M
are shaded - cyan for Good reception, pale orange for Variable
reception, pink for Poor reception (none in my case); the squares for N
are not shaded (i. e. white). Could be a lot clearer IMO!

Actually, there are two rows of channels for each transmitter, labelled
"Now | 11 Oct 2023" and "Final prediction | 2025", though I think the
channel numbers shown are identical in the two rows for all the
transmitters shown in my area.

--
J. P. Gilliver. UMRA: 1960/<1985 MB++G()AL-IS-Ch++(p)***@T+H+Sh0!:`)DNAf

Sometimes I believe we made up god just to have someone to blame for our
mistakes - "Sarah Sidle" (Jorja Fox), CSI

wrightsaerials@aol.com

2023-10-19 01:04:39 UTC

Post by J. P. Gilliver
I couldn't find anywhere on freeview.co.uk that led me to mb21.

That's only because they're jealous.

BIll

wrightsaerials@aol.com

2023-10-10 12:06:54 UTC

Post by Roderick Stewart
There definitely seems to have been logic to the spacing between them,
which for any particular transmitter is 2.2MHz, with the channels
always being in the same order. This facilitated the design of VHF
radio tuners with the channels being selected with a three way switch.

Early Rogers tuners were designed so you only had to tune the Light Prog and the others were done automatically.
Bill

wrightsaerials@aol.com

2023-10-10 12:11:30 UTC

Post by Mark Carver
Where did you get those offset values from ? UK Spec DTT used/(uses ?)
+/-167 kHz offsets,

Because that offset minimised the effect of CCI on analogue TV.

Bill

Mark Carver

2023-10-10 16:35:42 UTC

Post by Mark Carver
Where did you get those offset values from ? UK Spec DTT used/(uses ?)
+/-167 kHz offsets,

Because that offset minimised the effect of CCI on analogue TV.

Yes, I don't think any offsets are used now

--
Mark
Please replace invalid and invalid with gmx and net to reply.

Scott

2023-10-10 17:36:37 UTC

On Tue, 10 Oct 2023 17:35:42 +0100, Mark Carver

Post by Mark Carver
Where did you get those offset values from ? UK Spec DTT used/(uses ?)
+/-167 kHz offsets,

Because that offset minimised the effect of CCI on analogue TV.

Yes, I don't think any offsets are used now

Is that (simplistically) because in digital the two signals reinforce
each other rather than causing destructive interference - or possibly
because the power outputs are lower?

Mark Carver

2023-10-10 19:11:15 UTC

Post by Scott
On Tue, 10 Oct 2023 17:35:42 +0100, Mark Carver

Post by Mark Carver
Where did you get those offset values from ? UK Spec DTT used/(uses ?)
+/-167 kHz offsets,

Because that offset minimised the effect of CCI on analogue TV.

Yes, I don't think any offsets are used now

Is that (simplistically) because in digital the two signals reinforce
each other rather than causing destructive interference - or possibly
because the power outputs are lower?

No, neither.

It's because with analogue the energy of a TV signal had peaks based
upon the multiples of the line frequency. Therefore by offsetting a
co-channel transmitter by 5/3rds of that frequency (15.625 x 5)/3 =
26.041667 kHz) then the visual impact of two carriers on top of each
other was noticeably reduced.
(From a nasty pulsing effect, to a pattern rather like Venetian blinds)

With DTT, the signal contains a few thousand separate carriers, in
essence all random, so there is no value in offsetting.

SFN working is a different kettle of fish

--
Mark
Please replace invalid and invalid with gmx and net to reply.

2023-10-11 01:29:25 UTC

Post by Mark Carver
Where did you get those offset values from ? UK Spec DTT used/(uses ?)
+/-167 kHz offsets,

Because that offset minimised the effect of CCI on analogue TV.

Yes, I don't think any offsets are used now.

<pantomime mode>

Oh yes they are!

</pantomime mode>

When I got my PVR software to scan the spectrum, looking for muxes, it
found Belmont's COM4 on 545.833 MHz rather than 546.0 MHz, which seems
to suggest that offsets are still used even though they are no longer
necessary, no doubt on the basis that it is risky to tinker with
something that works.

How did a shift of 167 kHz in carrier frequency correspond with 5/3 of
line frequency ie 26 kHz?

At least I now know that the offset was to avoid DTT/analogue
interference, and not DTT/DTT interference from different transmitters.

Given that DTT is random, and even goes through a function that makes it
*more* random like white noise to minimise DTT's effect on analogue, how
would a shift on the DTT carrier make any difference to analogue? I can
see how an offset would minimise CCI between two analogue signals, as
long as you shift the multiples-of-line-rate peaks of one signal so they
slot neatly into the troughs of the other - as was the case for the
colour sub-carrier of PAL or NTSC shifting the colour to it interleaved
between the luminance.

Mark Carver

2023-10-11 07:16:08 UTC

Post by Mark Carver
Where did you get those offset values from ? UK Spec DTT used/(uses ?)
+/-167 kHz offsets,

Because that offset minimised the effect of CCI on analogue TV.

Yes, I don't think any offsets are used now.

Is it actually measuring that, and if so how ? It would require some
form of precision (ish) frequency reference to do so. I suspect your
software is preloaded with values which it compares with the SID of the
transmitter, and it's an out of date database

Post by NY
How did a shift of 167 kHz in carrier frequency correspond with 5/3 of
line frequency ie 26 kHz?

I don't know the mathematics. As a DTT COFDM signal when viewed in the
analogue domain simply looks like random noise, then there's nothing
that can be done to counter the effects of DTT on top of an analogue
signal. It just made the analogue picture look noisy (intuitively it
looked liked the analogue signal had been weakened, but that wasn't
actually what was happening)

The idea of the 167 kHz offsets was to steer the DTT transmission away
from an adjacent analogue signal, to protect reception of the DTT mux

Why 167 kHz, I don't know ?

--
Mark
Please replace invalid and invalid with gmx and net to reply.

2023-10-11 10:57:10 UTC

Post by NY
When I got my PVR software to scan the spectrum, looking for muxes, it
found Belmont's COM4 on 545.833 MHz rather than 546.0 MHz, which seems
to suggest that offsets are still used even though they are no longer
necessary, no doubt on the basis that it is risky to tinker with
something that works.

It's interesting. I was playing last night after I posted the above.

There is an entry in TVHeadend PVR software for the mux, in which
frequency, constellation (eg QAM/64), transmission mode (eg 8K), guard
interval (eg 1/32) and FEC (eg 3/4) are defined. The list of muxes
includes the ONID (9018) and the TSID (12294 in this case), which I
presume it is deriving from the data.

I edited the frequency from 535.833 to 546, leaving everything else the
same. The reported SNR and signal strength may have improved by about
0.1 dB or dBm, but that may be within the bounds of normal variation
over time.

However, when I played a station from the COM4 mux, I noticed that the
list of muxes now included a duplicate entry (same TSID) for 545.833.

This suggests that the data stream is including a reference to the
offset frequency.

And that is what seems to be the case: I recorded a bit of the whole
COM4 mux and examined it in a nifty tool called TSReader Lite
(COOLSTF.com). This lists all the muxes, in the Network Information Table.

And COM4 is listed there as 545.833 (extract from TSReader's report):

Network Name: East Yorks & Lincs
Network ID: 12327 (0x3027)
Transport Stream ID: 12294 (0x3006)
Original Network ID: 9018 (0x233a) Version: 24
Descriptor: Network Name Descriptor
Descriptor: Target region name Descriptor
Country Code: GBR Language Code: eng
Primary Region Code: 1 Region Name: England
Primary Region Code: 1 Region Name: East Yorkshire & Lincolnshire
Secondary region code: 4
Descriptor: Target region Descriptor
Country code: GBR
Primary region code: 1
Secondary region code: 4
Descriptor: Linkage Descriptor
Transport Stream ID: 4175 (0x104f) 482.0 MHz <===== red herring!
Original Network ID: 9018 (0x233a)
Service ID: 4416
Linkage Type: System Software Update Service
Descriptor: Message Descriptor

08 fe 65 6e 67 44 61 74 61 62 61 73 65 20 72 69 ..engDatabase ri
67 68 74 20 6f 66 20 44 69 67 69 74 61 6c 20 55 ght of Digital U
4b 20 4c 74 64 20 32 30 32 33 K Ltd 2023

Descriptor: Private Data Specifier Descriptor
Private Data Specifier: Independent Television Commission
Descriptor: Extended Undefined 0x13 Descriptor

13 80 20 68 74 74 70 73 3a 2f 2f 61 75 74 68 2d .. https://auth-
63 74 76 2e 64 69 67 69 74 61 6c 75 6b 2e 63 6f ctv.digitaluk.co
2e 75 6b .uk

DVB-T Frequency 545.833 MHz <=========== THIS LINE
Bandwidth: 8 MHz Constellation: 64-QAM
Hierarchy: non-hierarchical, native interleaver Guard Interval 1/32
Code Rate: 3/4
Current Network: True
Descriptor: Service List Descriptor
Service: 13120 (QVC) digital television service
Service: 12928 (5STAR) digital television service
Service: 12992 (5USA) digital television service
Service: 15200 (ADULT Section) digital television service
Service: 14688 (Absolute Radio) digital radio sound service
Service: 15952 (ITV2+1) digital television service
Service: 13024 (Channel 5+1) digital television service
etc

Look for the line that I've flagged as "THIS LINE".

So it would seem that the tables included with the muxes still list the
offset frequency - if it's not broken, don't fix it!

Paul Ratcliffe

2023-10-16 12:18:11 UTC

Post by NY
So it would seem that the tables included with the muxes still list the
offset frequency - if it's not broken, don't fix it!

Even if it is broken, they don't fix it.

The table in question in the NIT is the Terrestrial Delivery System
Descriptor. For example, this is what it reads for the whole of Wales
(as received from Wenvoe):

666.0 MHz 8 MHz 8k 1/32 64QAM 3/4
618.167 MHz 8 MHz 8k 1/32 64QAM 3/4
602.0 MHz 8 MHz 8k 1/32 QPSK 3/4
754.0 MHz 8 MHz 8k 1/32 QPSK 3/4
546.0 MHz 8 MHz 8k 1/32 QPSK 3/4
634.167 MHz 8 MHz 8k 1/32 64QAM 2/3
658.0 MHz 8 MHz 8k 1/32 64QAM 2/3
642.167 MHz 8 MHz 8k 1/32 64QAM 3/4

As you can see, one of the local muxes (the QPSK ones) is still listed
as 754 MHz which is what it used to be before the 700 MHz clearance
moves.
But this table is largely useless as it is only correct for one
transmitter, and it is only transmitted on DVB-T muxes. They didn't
bother implementing it with the DVB-T2 ones.
Anyway, I passed the above error up the food chain and my contact
said he'd tell Comux about it - if he did, they obviously haven't
done anything about it in the last 6 months.

As a test, I tried tuning my Pi receiver to 618.167 and 618 MHz in turn
then looked at the signal level, C/N, and pre and post BER figures and
couldn't tell the difference.

As a further test I tried offsetting the frequency (in lumps of 167 kHz)
until it failed to lock. The limits for receivability were 617.333 and
619.333 MHz.

Draw your own conclusions about whether that tells you anything about the
actual centre frequency. My aerial doesn't point at Wenvoe.

wrightsaerials@aol.com

2023-10-19 01:02:51 UTC

Post by NY
When I got my PVR software to scan the spectrum, looking for muxes, it
found Belmont's COM4 on 545.833 MHz rather than 546.0 MHz,

So could it be confusion between the analogue video carrier centre frequency and the centre frequency of the mux?

Bill

Paul Ratcliffe

2023-10-07 11:35:46 UTC

Post by NY
For me, FM tuning is a matter of tuning for *any* output - there is a
very narrow band as you go from hiss to station to hiss. With modern
synthesiser tuning, you are adjusting in discrete steps (0.5 MHz for
VHF) and with my car radio if I set it to (for example) 89.05 or 89.15
instead of 89.1, I get no signal. The tuner in my hifi system seems to
be a bit more forgiving and will give *some* output (albeit distorted)
for +/- 0.5 MHz either side of the nominal frequency.

You mean 0.05 MHz or 50 kHZ, not 0.5 MHz (multiple times).

2023-10-09 16:18:57 UTC

Post by Paul Ratcliffe

You mean 0.05 MHz or 50 kHZ, not 0.5 MHz (multiple times).

I do indeed! My example was correct (89.05 or 89.15 being either side of
89.1) but all my references to 0.5 MHz should have been 0.05 MHz.

I deserve Wally of the Year award ;-)

Scott

2023-10-09 17:28:46 UTC

Post by Paul Ratcliffe

You mean 0.05 MHz or 50 kHZ, not 0.5 MHz (multiple times).

I do indeed! My example was correct (89.05 or 89.15 being either side of
89.1) but all my references to 0.5 MHz should have been 0.05 MHz.
I deserve Wally of the Year award ;-)

Not at all. We can all make mistakes when typing.

Brian Gaff

2023-10-05 09:55:36 UTC

Well third and fourth would seem to be sequential.
Sets with the programmes marked was a throw back to the old AM days. These
days stations are all over the place on fm, and this has over the years made
sets with presets moor common and then once tunes in it does not matter
about where they are on a conventional dial.
Some of the old electromechanical presets were works of art though. I once
saw a Dynatron radio which had a permeability tuned FM part driven by a
motor and used a pot so in effect its was a servo, and you clearly heard it
as it moved the tuning. I think they used the permeability by a chord.
Apparently the core moving was less prone to acoustic feedback than a
capacitor tuned device.
One has to be so careful with old dials, I ruined on on a Lafayette Valve
radio by washing it and all the markings came off.
Brian
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Brian Gregory

2023-10-07 00:38:05 UTC

So that people wouldn't completely forget about the Third Program and it
might actually acquire a few listeners?

--
Brian Gregory (in England).

Brian Gaff

2023-10-07 08:40:56 UTC

In my view the biggest sin the BBC have done in ages is the stripping of
funding from their local radio stations. Replacing regional programming
after 10pm will leave a lot of elderly lonely listeners with yet another
banal national programme. Obviously they could make it a phone in on light
hearted matters or older music like the old programmes had, but since I've
not heard any trails for the new nation wide show, it does make me wonder.
Brian
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Post by Brian Gregory

So that people wouldn't completely forget about the Third Program and it
might actually acquire a few listeners?
--
Brian Gregory (in England).

Scott

2023-10-07 09:46:01 UTC

Post by Brian Gaff
In my view the biggest sin the BBC have done in ages is the stripping of
funding from their local radio stations. Replacing regional programming
after 10pm will leave a lot of elderly lonely listeners with yet another
banal national programme. Obviously they could make it a phone in on light
hearted matters or older music like the old programmes had, but since I've
not heard any trails for the new nation wide show, it does make me wonder.
Brian

I think it is a low worse than that, sadly. AIUI most of the weekend
programming will either the regional or national.

Brian Gaff

2023-10-08 11:47:41 UTC

If that is the case, what would be the point in doing it?
You might as well just turn off the whole network and save the money.
As I say, rather than having 1xtra they should flog it to a commercial
entity,maybe Radio X, and use the saved dosh to run a proper local radio
system which at the moment no commercial entity has been able to do
profitably. Is this not what the BBC is for? It should not be a glitzy maker
of programs that other companies do better these days.
Brian
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I think it is a low worse than that, sadly. AIUI most of the weekend
programming will either the regional or national.

Scott

2023-10-08 13:38:36 UTC

Post by Brian Gaff
If that is the case, what would be the point in doing it?
You might as well just turn off the whole network and save the money.
As I say, rather than having 1xtra they should flog it to a commercial
entity,maybe Radio X, and use the saved dosh to run a proper local radio
system which at the moment no commercial entity has been able to do
profitably. Is this not what the BBC is for? It should not be a glitzy maker
of programs that other companies do better these days.

You certainly don't need to persuade me (although living in Scotland I
am not directly affected). I think the definition of 'public service'
needs to be reviewed.

JMB99

2023-10-09 10:14:22 UTC

Post by Scott
You certainly don't need to persuade me (although living in Scotland I
am not directly affected). I think the definition of 'public service'
needs to be reviewed.

Yes, the SNP have STV as their broadcaster so the BBC must be much more
critical of the SNP and not act as their mouthpiece.

Scott

2023-10-07 13:37:41 UTC

Post by Brian Gaff
In my view the biggest sin the BBC have done in ages is the stripping of
funding from their local radio stations. Replacing regional programming
after 10pm will [snip]

Unfortunately, it starts on Monday:
https://radiotoday.co.uk/2023/10/late-night-local-radio-presenters-across-the-bbc-say-goodbye-to-listeners/

Brian Gaff

2023-10-08 11:53:19 UTC

I know, a lott just went same months ago and the bigger ones just filled in
the stations which hade no presenter. Some of the presenters were older and
decided to retire and maybe do odd shows on Boom Radio or other outlets,
just for pin money.
I heard the last Paul Miller Show on Thursday, and bits of Greg Dyke as
well. As I said, a very stupid decision when a lot of their niche stations
would have been salable to the commercial companies, and the money freed up
put back into local radio which is sadly lacking in the UK.
I guess in the end, it will be the online folk with nil costs other than
maybe prs to do it a bit like Hospital Radio does.
Brian
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Post by Brian Gaff
In my view the biggest sin the BBC have done in ages is the stripping of
funding from their local radio stations. Replacing regional programming
after 10pm will [snip]

https://radiotoday.co.uk/2023/10/late-night-local-radio-presenters-across-the-bbc-say-goodbye-to-listeners/

Scott

2023-10-08 13:40:14 UTC

Post by Brian Gaff
I know, a lott just went same months ago and the bigger ones just filled in
the stations which hade no presenter. Some of the presenters were older and
decided to retire and maybe do odd shows on Boom Radio or other outlets,
just for pin money.
I heard the last Paul Miller Show on Thursday, and bits of Greg Dyke as
well. As I said, a very stupid decision when a lot of their niche stations
would have been salable to the commercial companies, and the money freed up
put back into local radio which is sadly lacking in the UK.
I guess in the end, it will be the online folk with nil costs other than
maybe prs to do it a bit like Hospital Radio does.

Having a mother (now deceased) who worked in BBC radio, I find it all
quite sad.

Brian Gaff

2023-10-09 09:22:00 UTC

Yes well, the landscape cost wise for keeping local stations on the air
needs to be changed so they could be set up with minimal costs going
forward. The current landscape skews it so the big networks like Global are
getting their hands on smaller stations by giving them dosh to go away, then
using their frequencies to push their national brands and only pay lip
service to localness by the odd news bulletin.
Brian
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Having a mother (now deceased) who worked in BBC radio, I find it all
quite sad.

Graham.

2023-10-13 03:07:29 UTC

ISTR that when FM radio was included on a 405 line TV turret tuner, the order was usually H-L-T.

--
Graham.
%Profound_observation%

J. P. Gilliver

2023-10-13 03:27:58 UTC

Post by Graham.
ISTR that when FM radio was included on a 405 line TV turret tuner, the
order was usually H-L-T.

I'll take your word that it was, but that seems quite a complicated
thing to have done: presumably it was positions which turned the video
circuitry off, and obviously also involved decoder switching from AM to
FM. Half way to a dual-standard set!

(The last bit I can't help thinking means something like ham lettuce and
tomato.)

--
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If you believe in telekinesis, raise my right hand

Roderick Stewart

2023-10-13 08:06:17 UTC

On Fri, 13 Oct 2023 04:27:58 +0100, "J. P. Gilliver"

Post by Graham.
ISTR that when FM radio was included on a 405 line TV turret tuner, the
order was usually H-L-T.

If the order was H-L-T this would not have been the same as the order
of the broadcast frequencies, so the tuner would have had to use some
mechanism of its own to determine the order of the station presets.

If FM radio was included in a TV set, it was usually a separate module
with its own IF strip and detector, sometimes omitted for cheapness
but available as a retrofit for customers who were prepared to pay
more. These add-on modules often turned up on the surplus market and
my first FM tuner was based on one purchased from Manor Supplies. All
I had to do was make a suitable case and power supply. It wasn't any
good for stereo though; I had to build a new one for that.

Rod.

J. P. Gilliver

2023-10-13 08:29:38 UTC

Post by Roderick Stewart
On Fri, 13 Oct 2023 04:27:58 +0100, "J. P. Gilliver"

Post by Graham.
ISTR that when FM radio was included on a 405 line TV turret tuner, the
order was usually H-L-T.

Presumably if it took advantage of the 2.2 MHz spacing (which I hadn't
known about until this discussion), then presumably what order the 3
came in was a fairly trivial matter for the designer: I envisage a
turret, or buttons, with an overall fine tune control?

Post by Roderick Stewart
If FM radio was included in a TV set, it was usually a separate module
with its own IF strip and detector, sometimes omitted for cheapness
but available as a retrofit for customers who were prepared to pay
more. These add-on modules often turned up on the surplus market and
my first FM tuner was based on one purchased from Manor Supplies. All
I had to do was make a suitable case and power supply. It wasn't any
good for stereo though; I had to build a new one for that.
Rod.

Bit before my time, but I remember (1970s) stereo decoder modules being
available (basically just a decoder chip on a little board with the
necessary support components), and fitting such to a (transistor, but
cabinet) set. I remember I had to remove de-emphasis components. Why
wasn't yours suitable - too narrow a bandwidth? (Was it valve kit? I
normally think of that as having much broader bandwidth than needed for
audio, compared to early solid-state stuff.)

--
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All that glitters has a high refractive index.

Mark Carver

2023-10-13 08:48:24 UTC

Post by J. P. Gilliver
Bit before my time, but I remember (1970s) stereo decoder modules being
available (basically just a decoder chip on a little board with the
necessary support components), and fitting such to a (transistor, but
cabinet) set. I remember I had to remove de-emphasis components. Why
wasn't yours suitable - too narrow a bandwidth? (Was it valve kit? I
normally think of that as having much broader bandwidth than needed for
audio, compared to early solid-state stuff.)

I attempted to fit a stereo decoder to my FM portable radio. I removed
the de-emphasis components, but unfortunately the IF strip alignment
didn't open the window 'wide enough' to let the difference components
through unmolested, so results were poor.

It was a Maplins kit, based around the MC1310P chip

https://www.circuitstoday.com/stereo-decoder-circuit

--
Mark
Please replace invalid and invalid with gmx and net to reply.

Liz Tuddenham

2023-10-13 09:09:10 UTC

I attempted to fit a stereo decoder to my FM portable radio. I removed
the de-emphasis components, but unfortunately the IF strip alignment
didn't open the window 'wide enough' to let the difference components
through unmolested, so results were poor.
It was a Maplins kit, based around the MC1310P chip
https://www.circuitstoday.com/stereo-decoder-circuit

I had an Amstrad stereo tuner which was noisy on cold damp days but
quiet on warm dry ones. You would think it would be something to do
with propagation conditions but it turned out that the decoder chip was
moisture-sensitive.

--
~ Liz Tuddenham ~
(Remove the ".invalid"s and add ".co.uk" to reply)
www.poppyrecords.co.uk

Mark Carver

2023-10-13 09:15:16 UTC

Post by Liz Tuddenham

I attempted to fit a stereo decoder to my FM portable radio. I removed
the de-emphasis components, but unfortunately the IF strip alignment
didn't open the window 'wide enough' to let the difference components
through unmolested, so results were poor.
It was a Maplins kit, based around the MC1310P chip
https://www.circuitstoday.com/stereo-decoder-circuit

Ha. I suspect that was the MC1310P too, it was ubiquitous in the 70 and
early 80s.

--
Mark
Please replace invalid and invalid with gmx and net to reply.

Liz Tuddenham

2023-10-13 10:42:49 UTC

Post by Liz Tuddenham

I attempted to fit a stereo decoder to my FM portable radio. I removed
the de-emphasis components, but unfortunately the IF strip alignment
didn't open the window 'wide enough' to let the difference components
through unmolested, so results were poor.
It was a Maplins kit, based around the MC1310P chip
https://www.circuitstoday.com/stereo-decoder-circuit

Ha. I suspect that was the MC1310P too, it was ubiquitous in the 70 and
early 80s.

That number 'rings a bell'. I replaced the chip but the problem
persisted.

--
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www.poppyrecords.co.uk

Roderick Stewart

2023-10-13 11:17:41 UTC

On Fri, 13 Oct 2023 09:29:38 +0100, "J. P. Gilliver"
<***@255soft.uk> wrote:
[...]

Post by J. P. Gilliver
Presumably if it took advantage of the 2.2 MHz spacing (which I hadn't
known about until this discussion), then presumably what order the 3
came in was a fairly trivial matter for the designer: I envisage a
turret, or buttons, with an overall fine tune control?

The only FM tuner I ever encountered that did make use of the 2.2MHz
spacing was a Rogers one that used a fairly ordinary 3 position wafer
switch. There was an internal master tuning control to set it for
different regions, but as far as I remember the tuning switch simply
had extra coils between the wafers, and the station order was L-T-H,
the same as the frequency order.

It was a valve tuner with an ECC85 front end and I think it must have
been lack of bandwidth that prevented stereo from working. BBC
standard practice then was for the pilot tone to be switched on only
for actual stereo programmes, and the little stereo light on my tuner
would recognise that, but alas the sound wasn't any different (except
a little noisier).

I later purchased a Hacker portable radio, choosing the FM only
version because without the AM circuitry there was lots of space for
modifications, and I was able to fit a Mullard decoder module and a
pair of audio amplifiers for headphones, and that worked very well.
Another appealing feature of the Hacker radios was the quality of
manufacture and the fact that they used fairly standard components and
that service manuals with circuit schematics could be purchased from
the company, which helped a lot. I thoink I still have a few of their
service manuals, and also a letter from their head of marketing in
response to my enquiry, telling me that their radios were not suitable
for conversion to stereo. He was quite wrong.

Rod.

J. P. Gilliver

2023-10-13 13:54:43 UTC

In message <***@4ax.com> at Fri, 13 Oct
2023 12:17:41, Roderick Stewart <***@escapetime.myzen.co.uk> writes
[]

Post by Roderick Stewart
It was a valve tuner with an ECC85 front end and I think it must have
been lack of bandwidth that prevented stereo from working. BBC
standard practice then was for the pilot tone to be switched on only
for actual stereo programmes, and the little stereo light on my tuner
would recognise that, but alas the sound wasn't any different (except
a little noisier).

I wish they'd never stopped doing that! (I believe some stations - not
sure about BBC - also turned off the colour burst for non-colour
material on TV too, though that became rarer.) [These days they can't
even be relied on to use the shortscreen/4:3 flag properly.]

Post by Roderick Stewart
I later purchased a Hacker portable radio, choosing the FM only
version because without the AM circuitry there was lots of space for
modifications, and I was able to fit a Mullard decoder module and a
pair of audio amplifiers for headphones, and that worked very well.

Sounds good.

Post by Roderick Stewart
Another appealing feature of the Hacker radios was the quality of
manufacture and the fact that they used fairly standard components and
that service manuals with circuit schematics could be purchased from
the company, which helped a lot. I thoink I still have a few of their
service manuals, and also a letter from their head of marketing in
response to my enquiry, telling me that their radios were not suitable
for conversion to stereo. He was quite wrong.

One wonders why they should explicitly say that, rather than just
keeping shtum. I can only think of it either being a technically
clueless HoM, or deliberate misinformation in the hope you'd buy one of
their stereo sets.

Post by Roderick Stewart
Rod.

--
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of the devil? - Andy Hamilton on HIGNFY, 2010

Mark Carver

2023-10-13 14:12:10 UTC

Post by J. P. Gilliver
I wish they'd never stopped doing that! (I believe some stations - not
sure about BBC - also turned off the colour burst for non-colour
material on TV too,

The Beeb certainly did do that, in fact they were still doing so in some
instances into the late 80s.

The ITV companies did the same, until the mid 80s (It may well have been
an IBA requirement)

However, from the 1980s there was increasing amounts of kit in the Tx
chain that would reinsert it anyway (frame store synchronisers, and
other processing kit) so it ceased. C4 for instance never did it from
the outset.

Today, I've noticed on monochrome material you often get a very faint
traces of magenta, or green patches, where the colour difference signal
isn't quite 'Zero'.

--
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Please replace invalid and invalid with gmx and net to reply.

J. P. Gilliver

2023-10-13 15:49:39 UTC

Post by J. P. Gilliver
I wish they'd never stopped doing that! (I believe some stations -
not sure about BBC - also turned off the colour burst for non-colour
material on TV too,

The Beeb certainly did do that, in fact they were still doing so in
some instances into the late 80s.
The ITV companies did the same, until the mid 80s (It may well have
been an IBA requirement)
However, from the 1980s there was increasing amounts of kit in the Tx
chain that would reinsert it anyway (frame store synchronisers, and
other processing kit) so it ceased. C4 for instance never did it from
the outset.
Today, I've noticed on monochrome material you often get a very faint
traces of magenta, or green patches, where the colour difference signal
isn't quite 'Zero'.

Strange, as I'd not have thought there _was_ the equivalent of a colour
difference signal these days. Maybe it's material that was digitised
when there was (and it was as you say)?

Andy Burns

2023-10-13 16:04:29 UTC

Mark Carver writes

Post by Mark Carver
I've noticed on monochrome material you often get a very faint
traces of magenta, or green patches, where the colour difference
signal isn't quite 'Zero'.

Strange, as I'd not have thought there _was_ the equivalent of a colour
difference signal these days.

MPEG etc video depends on YCbCr

Mark Carver

2023-10-13 16:37:49 UTC

I wish they'd never stopped doing that! (I believe some stations -
not sure about BBC - also turned off the colour burst for non-colour
material on TV too,

The Beeb certainly did do that, in fact they were still doing so in
some instances into the late 80s.
The ITV companies did the same, until the mid 80s (It may well have
been an IBA requirement)
However, from the 1980s there was increasing amounts of kit in the Tx
chain that would reinsert it anyway (frame store synchronisers, and
other processing kit) so it ceased. C4 for instance never did it from
the outset.
Today, I've noticed on monochrome material you often get a very faint
traces of magenta, or green patches, where the colour difference
signal isn't quite 'Zero'.

Strange, as I'd not have thought there _was_ the equivalent of a colour
difference signal these days. Maybe it's material that was digitised
when there was (and it was as you say)?

Digital broadcast telly still has the same bandwidth restricted 'colour'
signal, so it still uses similar full fat luminance and lower bandwidth
colour difference signals

--
Mark
Please replace invalid and invalid with gmx and net to reply.

2023-10-13 17:07:15 UTC

Post by Mark Carver
Today, I've noticed on monochrome material you often get a very faint
traces of magenta, or green patches, where the colour difference signal
isn't quite 'Zero'.

Talking Pictures TV are terrible for this. You can go from one B&W film
to another and get a great shift from magenta to cyan to green tint.

I'm not sure why B&W films are not scanned in B&W (R=G=B) right from the
telecine stage - or why it isn't done later in the chain if the telecine
stage forgot to do it.

John Williamson

2023-10-13 17:20:32 UTC

Post by Mark Carver
Today, I've noticed on monochrome material you often get a very faint
traces of magenta, or green patches, where the colour difference
signal isn't quite 'Zero'.

Talking Pictures TV are terrible for this. You can go from one B&W film
to another and get a great shift from magenta to cyan to green tint.

Maybe some of their B&W output was printed onto tinted stock and they
want to preserve the full experience? Or at some point, someone wasn't
paying attention and used colour material for a transfer?

It was certainly common on silent movies.

--
Tciao for Now!

John.

J. P. Gilliver

2023-10-14 01:56:44 UTC

Post by John Williamson

Post by Mark Carver
Today, I've noticed on monochrome material you often get a very faint
traces of magenta, or green patches, where the colour difference
signal isn't quite 'Zero'.

Talking Pictures TV are terrible for this. You can go from one B&W film
to another and get a great shift from magenta to cyan to green tint.

Maybe some of their B&W output was printed onto tinted stock and they
want to preserve the full experience? Or at some point, someone wasn't

I know some B/W films were deliberately either tinted or stained with
different colours for different scenes, but I thought that largely died
out in about the '20s - not sure why, maybe duplication costs.

(A few prog.s still mess about with the colour even on colour
programming - of course, maybe most do but if done skilfully it's not
noticeable. But CSI Miami is one of the worst - OK, I've never been to
Florida and I accept that the daylight there is different, but I still
think they overdo it. I'm not aware of similar weirdness on stuff from,
say, Italy or Greece - or Israel.)

Post by John Williamson
paying attention and used colour material for a transfer?
It was certainly common on silent movies.

There was the other end of the cost scale, too: I think there were times
when colour dyes were cheaper than monochrome film of similar
resolution, so some black-and-white extremely low budget material was
duplicated on such - I remember as a child (would have been late 60s I
think) some of the Saturday matinee material in my local BFES fleapit
being not so much black-and-white, but blue-and-white. Particularly
westerns, I seem to remember, though ICBW about that. (Never was that
keen on those, but you didn't have much choice!)

(I think the same applied - especially for the fine-grain needed - to
microfilm material, as used in public archives and the like; that's
often blue dye rather than B/W film.)

--
J. P. Gilliver. UMRA: 1960/<1985 MB++G()AL-IS-Ch++(p)***@T+H+Sh0!:`)DNAf

Religion often uses faith as a blindfold, saying anyone who doesn't believe
the same as us must be wiped out. It's not God saying that. It's people, which
is so dangerous. - Jenny Agutter, RT 2015/1/17-23

2023-10-13 16:54:06 UTC

Post by J. P. Gilliver
[]

BBC seem to have a policy of transmitting 4:3 archive programmes (eg
Dad's Army) within a 16:9 widescreen frame, so the resolution of the 4:3
picture is very poor because many of the 720 horizontal pixels are black
borders. SO their widescreen flag is on 24/7.

I think ITV tends to use the widescreen flag properly and toggles it
between 16:9 programmes and 4:3 programmes.

Some of the repeats/archive channels (eg Drama, Yesterday) toggle the
widescreen flag as it was intended, so you get the full 720x576
resolution for both 16:9 and 4:3 programmes. You see the aspect ratio
flip over *almost* (but for some reason not frame-accurately) between
4:3 programme and 16:9 adverts.

Andy Burns

2023-10-13 16:59:08 UTC

[BBC] can't even be relied on to use the
shortscreen/4:3 flag properly.

I'm assuming you still use one, there may be dozens like you remaining!

J. P. Gilliver

2023-10-14 02:04:12 UTC

[BBC] can't even be relied on to use the shortscreen/4:3 flag
properly.

I'm assuming you still use one, there may be dozens like you remaining!

I didn't mean I'm using a 4:3 TV, I meant they often get it wrong when
broadcasting, especially 4:3 material as part of any sort of
retrospective prog., such as when someone has died. They get that wrong
so much that I can only assume there are people now even quite high up
in (especially news) production for whom 4:3 material is something they
genuinely don't know about.

(Or, especially archive music material on BBC4, they crop to
shortscreen. Which irritates me no end. I'd far rather have it
pillarboxed and see the whole image - after all, modern sets are big
enough that even pillarboxed it'd be bigger than when originally
transmitted, it doesn't need to fill the screen.)

Scott

2023-10-15 20:05:08 UTC

On Sat, 14 Oct 2023 03:04:12 +0100, "J. P. Gilliver"

[BBC] can't even be relied on to use the shortscreen/4:3 flag
properly.

I'm assuming you still use one, there may be dozens like you remaining!

I didn't mean I'm using a 4:3 TV,

I have a 4:3 TV in my kitchen. It is fed from an HD box set to centre
cut-out.

Graham.

2023-10-17 21:35:07 UTC

I still have a few of their>service manuals, and also a letter from their head of marketing in>response to my enquiry, telling me that their radios were not suitable>for conversion to stereo. He was quite wrong.One wonders why they should explicitly say that, rather than just keeping shtum. I can only think of it either being a technically clueless HoM, or deliberate misinformation in the hope you'd buy one of their stereo sets.
Technically known as a "Mandy Rice-Davies" response.

--
Graham.
%Profound_observation%

JMB99

2023-10-13 12:53:34 UTC

Just dug out an old copy of WRTH, it does not list all the lower power
sites so will have another look later.

Initially in Northern Ireland, Scotland and Wales, the Home Service was
the Scottish Home Service etc. and on the Home Service frequency.

Then (I think) when Radio 4 etc started, these became Radio Scotland
etc. and we had no Radio 4 coverage on VHF FM in much of the country.

They then added regional services - Radio nan Gaidheal etc which were on
what became later the Radio 1 frequency - usually Home Service + 5.2.

I think there were some exceptions but will need the full list.

Later it got much more complicated with Radio 1 and 4 everywhere as well
as the regional services. There was talk (a plan?) to keep Radio 4 on
the old Home Service frequency or move it there but it did not happen
(except for a couple of weeks at one site where there was a cock-up!)

Mark Carver

2023-10-13 14:19:57 UTC

Post by JMB99
Just dug out an old copy of WRTH, it does not list all the lower power
sites so will have another look later.
Initially in Northern Ireland, Scotland and Wales, the Home Service was
the Scottish Home Service etc. and on the Home Service frequency.
Then (I think) when Radio 4 etc started, these became Radio Scotland
etc. and we had no Radio 4 coverage on VHF FM in much of the country.
They then added regional services - Radio nan Gaidheal etc which were on
what became later the Radio 1 frequency - usually Home Service + 5.2.
I think there were some exceptions but will need the full list.
Later it got much more complicated with Radio 1 and 4 everywhere as well
as the regional services. There was talk (a plan?) to keep Radio 4 on
the old Home Service frequency or move it there but it did not happen
(except for a couple of weeks at one site where there was a cock-up!)

Radios Ulster, Cymru, and Scotland all initially occupied the 'Home/R4'
block, 92.5 to 94.5.

Then in the 80s/90s extra frequencies were found to add Radio 4 outside
of England to existing transmitters. These used the BBC local radio
blocks (94.6 to 96.1, and 103.5 to 104.9).

There was a plan for the three BBC nations to move to these, and let R4
have the original 92.5- 94.5 block, but the stations themselves
protested, saying it would confuse listeners.

New transmitters (carrying R1-4 + 'nations') did have R4 at 92-94, so
that's why today it all looks a bit of a mess. Doesn't really matter for
car radio use, because RDS deals with it all anyway.

--
Mark
Please replace invalid and invalid with gmx and net to reply.

2023-10-13 16:46:19 UTC

Post by Graham.
ISTR that when FM radio was included on a 405 line TV turret tuner,
the order was usually H-L-T.

I remember my grandparents had a 405-line TV with turret tuner which had
positions for VHF radio stations. I think it had just three positions
for H, L and T, so I presume there was a preset somewhere which tuned
the three presets to whatever frequencies were used at your transmitter
(and which I now know were always spaced 2.2 MHz apart, so if you adjust
one, you've adjusted all three).

They kept it until they moved house in 1978 when, for the first time in
their lives, they got a colour TV.

Scott

2023-10-15 20:10:53 UTC

Post by Graham.
ISTR that when FM radio was included on a 405 line TV turret tuner,
the order was usually H-L-T.

I remember my grandparents had a 405-line TV with turret tuner which had
positions for VHF radio stations. I think it had just three positions
for H, L and T,

My granny had one of these too.

Post by NY
so I presume there was a preset somewhere which tuned
the three presets to whatever frequencies were used at your transmitter
(and which I now know were always spaced 2.2 MHz apart, so if you adjust
one, you've adjusted all three).

I cannot remember whether the turret had all the channels on it (we
were BBC=3 and STV=10) or if it just had settings for BBC and ITA (as
my granny always called it). Why would the handle TV and radio
differently?

Post by NY
They kept it until they moved house in 1978 when, for the first time in
their lives, they got a colour TV.

J. P. Gilliver

2023-10-16 00:25:13 UTC

[]

Post by NY
I remember my grandparents had a 405-line TV with turret tuner which had
positions for VHF radio stations. I think it had just three positions
for H, L and T,

My granny had one of these too.

Because it's an entirely different system: system A TV used AM sound, as
well as they probably wanted to turn off the video monitor part of the
set - what would it display? No picture generators of any sort in those
days! (Well, not for building into sets.)
[]
I suspect the FM sound strip used the conventional 10.7 MHz IF as well,
rather than the intercarrier that most TVs used (what was it for system
A - 3.5 MHz?).

--
J. P. Gilliver. UMRA: 1960/<1985 MB++G()AL-IS-Ch++(p)***@T+H+Sh0!:`)DNAf

That's how he [Dr. Who] seems to me. He's always been someone who gets the
/Guardian/. There are some parts of the universe where it's harder to get hold
of. - Peter Capaldi (current incumbent Doctor), RT 2016/11/26-12/2

wrightsaerials@aol.com

2023-10-19 01:22:38 UTC