Use of maps - and visual aids in general?

[J. P. Gilliver]

My ears were caught by the phrase "lots of maps" - I think the presenter
was talking about the BBC News website.

IMO, all the news outlets make _insufficient_ use of maps and other
visual aids - especially, at the moment, the Ukraine situation: for
example, where the flood waters will affect (both habitation and
agricultural), but also things like graphs and pie charts.

The only reason I can think of harks back to a sketch mocking the use of
visual aids on Not the Nine O'Clock News - in the late '70s! (I think it
might have been - using Pammy of course - mocking Jan Leeming, or Angela
of course.) It may seem inconceivable that a sketch from over 40 years
ago could still be having repercussions today, but that show was
amazingly influential - for example, the presentation (and generally
running) of darts is _still_ influenced by one of their sketches, and I
don't think American Express will ever use That Slogan again, either.

If that _isn't_ the reason, then why _don't_ the (TV broadcast) news
media use visual aids more? (And _leave them on screen_ for more than a
few seconds; I'd far rather see a map than the person talking about what
it shows - I can _hear_ them just fine.)

For example (it's just come on which prompts me): can you imagine a TV
weather report _without_ either maps or other visual aids.

(The report [I say _the_ report, as it's the same one I've seen several
times in a very short time] from Ukraine is on again: they'd rather
show, again, the video of the breach, and some ground video [sadly, we
know what people evacuating looks like], than maps. One static map did
appear, for a few seconds.)

[Chris J Dixon]

Post by J. P. Gilliver
The only reason I can think of harks back to a sketch mocking the use of
visual aids on Not the Nine O'Clock News - in the late '70s! (I think it
might have been - using Pammy of course - mocking Jan Leeming, or Angela
of course.) It may seem inconceivable that a sketch from over 40 years
ago could still be having repercussions today,

My mind goes back to The Frost Report, sketch including the
Lord Privy Seal.

Chris

[J. P. Gilliver]

Post by Chris J Dixon

Post by J. P. Gilliver
The only reason I can think of harks back to a sketch mocking the use of
visual aids on Not the Nine O'Clock News - in the late '70s! (I think it
might have been - using Pammy of course - mocking Jan Leeming, or Angela
of course.) It may seem inconceivable that a sketch from over 40 years
ago could still be having repercussions today,

My mind goes back to The Frost Report, sketch including the
Lord Privy Seal.
http://youtu.be/AVlfvdH7qwY
Chris

Excellent! Thanks. But I'd actually prefer a bit more of that! (Perhaps
not to the extent of the Lord Privy Seal of course!)

I can't find the actual NTNO'CN skit, though I did find one in which the
real Jan and Angela gave scores. (Good sports they were.)

[MB]

IMO, all the news outlets make_insufficient_ use of maps and other
visual aids - especially, at the moment, the Ukraine situation: for
example, where the flood waters will affect (both habitation and
agricultural), but also things like graphs and pie charts.

How much are they charged for using maps?

Some young kid typing up the report, might well have been told off
previously because the company got a high bill for using a map and he is
probably not familiar with on how to get copyright clearance and
agreements as well not high enough up the food chain to authorise a payment.

[[e-mail]]

It's because arts educated people are not usually map literate. They find maps confusing. As just one example, I have friend who has several degrees and has won industry awards, but he cannot understand maps at all. Even following a walking map in the Lake District is beyond him.

Bill

[NY]

Post by ***@aol.com
It's because arts educated people are not usually map literate. They find
maps confusing. As just one example, I have friend who has several degrees
and has won industry awards, but he cannot understand maps at all. Even
following a walking map in the Lake District is beyond him.

Some people expect paper maps to turn so the direction they are heading is
always "upwards", and they expect maps to have a red crosshair to show "you
are here" as they follow a route.

[J. P. Gilliver]

Post by NY

Post by ***@aol.com
It's because arts educated people are not usually map literate. They
find maps confusing. As just one example, I have friend who has

We science-educated people need to rebel more. We've given in to them
for too long, for fear of appearing "nerds" (or similar terms from
previous generations). They need to have their fair share of confusion
(to counter our share of frustration).

Post by NY

Post by ***@aol.com
several degrees and has won industry awards, but he cannot understand
maps at all. Even following a walking map in the Lake District is
beyond him.

Some people expect paper maps to turn so the direction they are heading
is always "upwards", and they expect maps to have a red crosshair to
show "you are here" as they follow a route.

Well, obviously _paper_ maps can't do that, but modern e. g. SatNav-type
ones can and do do that. And nothing wrong with it - _I_ prefer it,
given the choice.

[J. P. Gilliver]

Post by MB

IMO, all the news outlets make_insufficient_ use of maps and other
visual aids - especially, at the moment, the Ukraine situation: for
example, where the flood waters will affect (both habitation and
agricultural), but also things like graphs and pie charts.

How much are they charged for using maps?
Some young kid typing up the report, might well have been told off
previously because the company got a high bill for using a map and he
is probably not familiar with on how to get copyright clearance and
agreements as well not high enough up the food chain to authorise a payment.

That may well be an aspect of it - and if it is, it's a sad state of
affairs. It surely shouldn't be the reason why maps showing the Ukraine
flooding are absent.

[MB]

Post by J. P. Gilliver
That may well be an aspect of it - and if it is, it's a sad state of
affairs. It surely shouldn't be the reason why maps showing the Ukraine
flooding are absent.

Absent?

I saw some satellite images of the flooding last night on the news?

[MikeS]

Post by J. P. Gilliver
My ears were caught by the phrase "lots of maps" - I think the presenter
was talking about the BBC News website.
IMO, all the news outlets make _insufficient_ use of maps and other
visual aids - especially, at the moment, the Ukraine situation: for
example, where the flood waters will affect (both habitation and
agricultural), but also things like graphs and pie charts.
The only reason I can think of harks back to a sketch mocking the use of
visual aids on Not the Nine O'Clock News - in the late '70s! (I think it
might have been - using Pammy of course - mocking Jan Leeming, or Angela
of course.) It may seem inconceivable that a sketch from over 40 years
ago could still be having repercussions today, but that show was
amazingly influential - for example, the presentation (and generally
running) of darts is _still_ influenced by one of their sketches, and I
don't think American Express will ever use That Slogan again, either.
If that _isn't_ the reason, then why _don't_ the (TV broadcast) news
media use visual aids more? (And _leave them on screen_ for more than a
few seconds; I'd far rather see a map than the person talking about what
it shows - I can _hear_ them just fine.)
For example (it's just come on which prompts me): can you imagine a TV
weather report _without_ either maps or other visual aids.
(The report [I say _the_ report, as it's the same one I've seen several
times in a very short time] from Ukraine is on again: they'd rather
show, again, the video of the breach, and some ground video [sadly, we
know what people evacuating looks like], than maps. One static map did
appear, for a few seconds.)

Reading this thread its hard to believe the OP - or the other
contributors - actually watch news on TV. Both the BBC and Sky news
channels constantly make use of graphics including maps and satellite
images.

Of course, if they all spend their days watching GB News ...

[MB]

Post by MikeS
Reading this thread its hard to believe the OP - or the other
contributors - actually watch news on TV. Both the BBC and Sky news
channels constantly make use of graphics including maps and satellite
images.
Of course, if they all spend their days watching GB News ...

It is a commen feature of USENET that someone claims a story was not on
the news even though you remember seeing it, usually if you look on the
BBC News website it will also be there.

But the news reports on air and online are changing all the time.

[J. P. Gilliver]

Post by MB

Post by MikeS
Reading this thread its hard to believe the OP - or the other
contributors - actually watch news on TV. Both the BBC and Sky news
channels constantly make use of graphics including maps and satellite
images.
Of course, if they all spend their days watching GB News ...

It is a commen feature of USENET that someone claims a story was not on
the news even though you remember seeing it, usually if you look on the
BBC News website it will also be there.

Often _only_ there. I accept, of course, that there is limited time on
the news channel, but when that repeats endlessly only one
aspect/story/whatever (with exhortations to view the website), it gets a
bit wearing.

Post by MB
But the news reports on air and online are changing all the time.

We'll have to agree to disagree on the extent to which that is true.

[J. P. Gilliver]

In message <u5rur5$1esr5$***@dont-email.me> at Thu, 8 Jun 2023 08:09:24,
MikeS <***@fred.com> writes
[]

Post by MikeS
Reading this thread its hard to believe the OP - or the other
contributors - actually watch news on TV. Both the BBC and Sky news
channels constantly make use of graphics including maps and satellite
images.

I mostly watch BBC, sometimes Sky. So far, _I_ have seen very little/few
maps on the dam story - and when there is one, it's on screen for a very
short time. There is also almost never a cursor used (or in days past, a
person pointing), to show what/where was being talked about.

Post by MikeS
Of course, if they all spend their days watching GB News ...

I very occasionally try them - usually when the other two are stuck in
monostoryism, such as (in recent days) the prince-in-court story. (To
me, it's unforgivable that that could be "today's main story" [it was
actually referred to as such, more than once], when the dam story was
happening. I concede there is _some_ interest in it, but really?) I
agree GB News aren't among the best news outlets! (Though - like Jeremy
Clarkson - they have an effect by influencing others, and offending
people who deserve to be offended.)

[MB]

I mostly watch BBC, sometimes Sky. So far,_I_ have seen very little/few
maps on the dam story - and when there is one, it's on screen for a very
short time. There is also almost never a cursor used (or in days past, a
person pointing), to show what/where was being talked about.

It is probably because the situation is very fluid (excuse pun), they
could spend time making up a map then find thinga have changed and they
have to start again.

Easier to show a satellite image which shows it better.

[J. P. Gilliver]

Post by MB

I mostly watch BBC, sometimes Sky. So far,_I_ have seen very little/few
maps on the dam story - and when there is one, it's on screen for a very
short time. There is also almost never a cursor used (or in days past, a
person pointing), to show what/where was being talked about.

It is probably because the situation is very fluid (excuse pun), they
could spend time making up a map then find thinga have changed and they
have to start again.

Chicken-and-egg: had they been in the practice of using them more,
there'd be less time needed "making up a map".

Post by MB
Easier to show a satellite image which shows it better.

Maybe I've just not happened to see the one(s) you have: I haven't seen
a satellite image which shows the overall picture/effect - I'm not sure
it'd necessarily be visible on one showing the whole affected area. (Now
I think of it, I _have_ seen a couple of before-and-after ones, but
those are of quite a small specific area, not the area affected as a
whole.)

[Brian Gaff]

Oi, what about us blind people. I do despair on some apps and web sites
where you have to move a pin with the mouse or finger and then get a close
up. We cannot do that in any way, and there are a lot of us out there, yet
the attempt to make these things work for us is either non existent, or
badly done.
Brian
--
--:
This newsgroup posting comes to you directly from...
The Sofa of Brian Gaff...
***@blueyonder.co.uk
Blind user, so no pictures please
Note this Signature is meaningless.!

Post by J. P. Gilliver
My ears were caught by the phrase "lots of maps" - I think the presenter
was talking about the BBC News website.
IMO, all the news outlets make _insufficient_ use of maps and other visual
aids - especially, at the moment, the Ukraine situation: for example,
where the flood waters will affect (both habitation and agricultural), but
also things like graphs and pie charts.
The only reason I can think of harks back to a sketch mocking the use of
visual aids on Not the Nine O'Clock News - in the late '70s! (I think it
might have been - using Pammy of course - mocking Jan Leeming, or Angela
of course.) It may seem inconceivable that a sketch from over 40 years ago
could still be having repercussions today, but that show was amazingly
influential - for example, the presentation (and generally running) of
darts is _still_ influenced by one of their sketches, and I don't think
American Express will ever use That Slogan again, either.
If that _isn't_ the reason, then why _don't_ the (TV broadcast) news media
use visual aids more? (And _leave them on screen_ for more than a few
seconds; I'd far rather see a map than the person talking about what it
shows - I can _hear_ them just fine.)
For example (it's just come on which prompts me): can you imagine a TV
weather report _without_ either maps or other visual aids.
(The report [I say _the_ report, as it's the same one I've seen several
times in a very short time] from Ukraine is on again: they'd rather show,
again, the video of the breach, and some ground video [sadly, we know what
people evacuating looks like], than maps. One static map did appear, for a
few seconds.)
--
Lucy Worsley takes tea in Jane Austen's Regency Bath. - TV "Choices" listing,
RT 2017-5-27

[MB]

Post by Brian Gaff
Oi, what about us blind people. I do despair on some apps and web sites
where you have to move a pin with the mouse or finger and then get a close
up. We cannot do that in any way, and there are a lot of us out there, yet
the attempt to make these things work for us is either non existent, or
badly done.

What do you suggest, I presume there are some bulletins with Audio
Description available but difficult to see what else can be done.

[J. P. Gilliver]

Post by MB

Post by Brian Gaff
Oi, what about us blind people. I do despair on some apps and web sites
where you have to move a pin with the mouse or finger and then get a close
up. We cannot do that in any way, and there are a lot of us out there, yet
the attempt to make these things work for us is either non existent, or
badly done.

What do you suggest, I presume there are some bulletins with Audio
Description available but difficult to see what else can be done.

Although fully sighted (other than 3D), I tend to have audio description
on all the time - I have blind friends so I'm interested in the
provision, and also I find it allows me to do other things more.

I think Brian was not talking about news specifically - "apps and web
sites" - and I agree with him wholeheartedly: the _attitude_, not just
to making provision for the visually impaired but when something doesn't
work for another reason, is often uncaring/rude. (I recently had some
trouble with communications from my dental practice, and was clearly up
against a brick wall if I tried to suggest change.) But as for news:
yes, one can see that the provision of AD for up-to-the-minute reports
involves some challenges. Sometimes they - BBC certainly, not sure about
the others - do a longer piece, such as a half-hour prog. on life in
Afghanistan or other area, and those _are_ AD - and it's done well, IMO.
(For example, when someone speaks their own language, and what they are
saying is shown in English on-screen, the AD speaks it.)

[Brian Gaff]

On our council web sit they also have a part for blind people which allows
post codes to be entered in to identify, for example, a fly tipped heap of
junk.

It depends on what you are trying to do with your maps of course. in some
sites and apps you do also get a rough idea of where you are by simulating
the mouse with cursor keys. There is also of course that excellent app what
three words for locations out in the middle of nowhere.
Brian
--
--:
This newsgroup posting comes to you directly from...
The Sofa of Brian Gaff...
***@blueyonder.co.uk
Blind user, so no pictures please
Note this Signature is meaningless.!

Post by MB

Post by Brian Gaff
Oi, what about us blind people. I do despair on some apps and web sites
where you have to move a pin with the mouse or finger and then get a close
up. We cannot do that in any way, and there are a lot of us out there, yet
the attempt to make these things work for us is either non existent, or
badly done.

What do you suggest, I presume there are some bulletins with Audio
Description available but difficult to see what else can be done.

[J. P. Gilliver]

Post by Brian Gaff
On our council web sit they also have a part for blind people which allows
post codes to be entered in to identify, for example, a fly tipped heap of
junk.

In some ways, I'm pleased to hear it. In other ways, I'm slightly
depressed that they have "a part for blind people", rather than
designing the _whole_ site to be accessible: there is little that
actually _requires_ - or is improved by - being _not_ accessible. (Maps
are actually one of the few exceptions, in that they _do_ aid the
sighted!) Having "a part for blind people" also makes it seen as an
extra expense; it should remain in design mind at all times. Rather
similar to disabled access to buildings: it's a lot cheaper (sometimes
no extra expense) to design, rather than retrofit.

Post by Brian Gaff
It depends on what you are trying to do with your maps of course. in some
sites and apps you do also get a rough idea of where you are by simulating
the mouse with cursor keys. There is also of course that excellent app what
three words for locations out in the middle of nowhere.
Brian

Indeed. Covers the whole world, apparently. (Though you do need mobile
coverage - perhaps not to generate the three words as I think those are
based on GPS, but in order to actually communicate them to anyone!)

[MB]

Post by J. P. Gilliver
Indeed. Covers the whole world, apparently. (Though you do need mobile
coverage - perhaps not to generate the three words as I think those are
based on GPS, but in order to actually communicate them to anyone!)

But there are ambiguities even in small coverage areas like the UK.
Emergency service seem less keen on it now because of that and other
factors. It is of course a commercial system and only free with
limitations.

[MB]

Post by Brian Gaff
It depends on what you are trying to do with your maps of course. in some
sites and apps you do also get a rough idea of where you are by simulating
the mouse with cursor keys. There is also of course that excellent app what
three words for locations out in the middle of nowhere.

Did you see (on The One Show I think) the sort of Braille-like device so
a blind person can follow the movement of the ball in a game of football.

[J. P. Gilliver]

Post by MB

Post by Brian Gaff
It depends on what you are trying to do with your maps of course. in some
sites and apps you do also get a rough idea of where you are by simulating
the mouse with cursor keys. There is also of course that excellent app what
three words for locations out in the middle of nowhere.

Did you see (on The One Show I think) the sort of Braille-like device
so a blind person can follow the movement of the ball in a game of
football.

"Back to square one ..."

[MB]

Post by J. P. Gilliver
"Back to square one ..."

That was my thought as I watched it, I was surprised it was not
mentioned but perhaps the presenter was too young know about it.

[Bing AI]

Post by J. P. Gilliver
Back to square one

The origin of the phrase "Back to square one" is uncertain. According to
most etymology resources, the phrase might have come from the sport of
football: when someone goes back to the first square, then the phrase is
a tactical reference that is thought to have branched out of the sport
and into popular use³. However, this theory is not supported by any
evidence. The earliest recorded use of it in print is from a 1952
edition of the Economic Journal². It's a classic of folk etymology and
ranks up there with 'the whole nine yards' and 'posh' as an expression
that people 'know' the origin of, when in fact they don't¹.

I hope that helps!

Source: Conversation with Bing, 10/06/2023
(1) Back to Square One – Meaning, Origin and Usage - English-Grammar
.... https://english-grammar-lessons.com/back-to-square-one-meaning/.
(2) . https://bing.com/search?q=back+to+square+one+origin.
(3) The saying 'Back to square one' - meaning and origin. -
Phrasefinder. https://www.phrases.org.uk/meanings/back-to-square-one.html.
(4) "Back to Square One" | Origin and Meaning - Grammar Monster.
https://www.grammar-monster.com/sayings_proverbs/back_to_square_one.htm.

[J. P. Gilliver]

Post by Bing AI

Post by J. P. Gilliver
Back to square one

The origin of the phrase "Back to square one" is uncertain. According
to most etymology resources, the phrase might have come from the sport
of football: when someone goes back to the first square, then the
phrase is a tactical reference that is thought to have branched out of
the sport and into popular use³. However, this theory is not supported
by any evidence. The earliest recorded use of it in print is from a
1952 edition of the Economic Journal². It's a classic of folk etymology
and ranks up there with 'the whole nine yards' and 'posh' as an
expression that people 'know' the origin of, when in fact they don't¹.
I hope that helps!

[]
I agree - I hate with some vigour folk etymologies, as they propagate so
well. And the normal meaning of that phrase does not match where square
one is on the example charts usually shown. The fact remains that such
charts _did_ appear in the RT though, though "back to square one" may
not have actually derived from there. (I think it was more used by a
quiet voice behind the commentary just saying "square X", a bit like
snooker commentary though I don't know why I'm saying that as it isn't
really).

I didn't actually see the item on the Braille-like device being
discussed. Maybe it'll come round again - was it on Click?

[MB]

Post by J. P. Gilliver
I didn't actually see the item on the Braille-like device being
discussed. Maybe it'll come round again - was it on Click?

I think it was on The One Show.

It was small box with a plan of the pitch on the top. There was
something like a steel washer that moved around and could be felt by the
blind person. If there was a goal then I think it vibrated.

[J. P. Gilliver]

Post by MB

Post by J. P. Gilliver
I didn't actually see the item on the Braille-like device being
discussed. Maybe it'll come round again - was it on Click?

I think it was on The One Show.
It was small box with a plan of the pitch on the top. There was
something like a steel washer that moved around and could be felt by
the blind person. If there was a goal then I think it vibrated.

Thanks for the description. Sounds a good idea - but of sufficient
complexity that I imagine it'd be horrendously expensive; most blind
aids are, because they fall below the point at which economies of scale
make PC peripherals cheap. (Most Braille "monitors" - which are really
only one line of text, but despite that - cost between a three and four
figure sum, new.) Such a device, being only for blind football fans
(conceivably some other pitch-based sports), would have an even smaller
market, and thus be exorbitant.

[Stephen Wolstenholme]

Post by Bing AI

Post by J. P. Gilliver
Back to square one

The origin of the phrase "Back to square one" is uncertain. According to
most etymology resources, the phrase might have come from the sport of
football: when someone goes back to the first square, then the phrase is
a tactical reference that is thought to have branched out of the sport
and into popular use³. However, this theory is not supported by any
evidence. The earliest recorded use of it in print is from a 1952
edition of the Economic Journal². It's a classic of folk etymology and
ranks up there with 'the whole nine yards' and 'posh' as an expression
that people 'know' the origin of, when in fact they don't¹.
I hope that helps!

I thought it might be from "Snakes and Ladders"

[Bing AI]

Post by Stephen Wolstenholme

Post by Bing AI

Post by J. P. Gilliver
Back to square one

The origin of the phrase "Back to square one" is uncertain. According to
most etymology resources, the phrase might have come from the sport of
football: when someone goes back to the first square, then the phrase is
a tactical reference that is thought to have branched out of the sport
and into popular use³. However, this theory is not supported by any
evidence. The earliest recorded use of it in print is from a 1952
edition of the Economic Journal². It's a classic of folk etymology and
ranks up there with 'the whole nine yards' and 'posh' as an expression
that people 'know' the origin of, when in fact they don't¹.
I hope that helps!

I thought it might be from "Snakes and Ladders"

Yes, you are correct. According to most etymology resources, the phrase
"Back to square one" might have come from the game of Snakes and Ladders
(Chutes and Ladders in the US) ¹². The earliest instances of the phrase
indicate that it refers to the game of snakes and ladders, a board game
in which an unlucky fall of the dice takes one from the top to the
bottom line ¹.

I hope that helps!

Source: Conversation with Bing, 10/06/2023
(1) meaning and origin of ‘back to square one’ - word histories.
https://wordhistories.net/2019/11/23/square-one/.
(2) . https://bing.com/search?q=back+to+square+one+snakes+and+ladders.
(3) How did the phrase "back at Square One" originate?.
https://english.stackexchange.com/questions/553754/how-did-the-phrase-back-at-square-one-originate.
(4) The saying 'Back to square one' - meaning and origin. -
Phrasefinder. https://www.phrases.org.uk/meanings/back-to-square-one.html.
(5) Snakes and ladders - Wikipedia.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Snakes_and_ladders.

[Max Demian]

Post by Brian Gaff
Oi, what about us blind people. I do despair on some apps and web sites
where you have to move a pin with the mouse or finger and then get a close
up. We cannot do that in any way, and there are a lot of us out there, yet
the attempt to make these things work for us is either non existent, or
badly done.

Well some things are inherently visual, but one thing that could be
improved for blind people is chatbots, including the emotional/social
kind like Replika (featured on a recent edition of ITV Tonight). These
are fundamentally text based and any visuals are just an icing on the
cake. I'm sure you would like to have an AI friend to discuss your life
with. Some of them even allow ERP (erotic role-play).

[J. P. Gilliver]

In message <u5su6t$1i6h8$***@dont-email.me> at Thu, 8 Jun 2023 17:04:47,
Max Demian <***@bigfoot.com> writes
[]

Post by Max Demian
Well some things are inherently visual, but one thing that could be
improved for blind people is chatbots, including the emotional/social
kind like Replika (featured on a recent edition of ITV Tonight). These
are fundamentally text based and any visuals are just an icing on the
cake. I'm sure you would like to have an AI friend to discuss your life
with. Some of them even allow ERP (erotic role-play).

Gives a whole new meaning to 1 megawatt ERP!