Steadicam viewfinder screens - why are they always green?

[Mortimer]

Looking at the various Steadicams that are being used for the election
programmes, and having seen them used in the past for filming drama (on
either film or video) I notice that the viewfinder monitor mounted low down
(ie not the one on the camera) always has a green-phosphor screen. Why is
this - why is it not either a colour screen or else a white-phosphor
black-and-white screen?

[charles]

Post by Mortimer
Looking at the various Steadicams that are being used for the election
programmes, and having seen them used in the past for filming drama (on
either film or video) I notice that the viewfinder monitor mounted low
down (ie not the one on the camera) always has a green-phosphor screen.
Why is this - why is it not either a colour screen or else a
white-phosphor black-and-white screen?

my suspicion is that they are B&W to the human eye - it's simply the way a
colour camera renders that phosphur makes it look green. No need for colour
on cameras viewfinder which is simply used for framing a shot. Nowadays,
of course, small colour displays have become much cheaper - so ...

[Mortimer]

Post by charles

Post by Mortimer
Looking at the various Steadicams that are being used for the election
programmes, and having seen them used in the past for filming drama (on
either film or video) I notice that the viewfinder monitor mounted low
down (ie not the one on the camera) always has a green-phosphor screen.
Why is this - why is it not either a colour screen or else a
white-phosphor black-and-white screen?

my suspicion is that they are B&W to the human eye - it's simply the way a
colour camera renders that phosphur makes it look green. No need for colour
on cameras viewfinder which is simply used for framing a shot. Nowadays,
of course, small colour displays have become much cheaper - so ...

No, it's very strong green (like old green computer screens of the early
1980s) even to the naked eye. So it's not just an artifact of another camera
viewing the monitor.

[Dave Liquorice]

Post by Mortimer

Post by charles

I notice that the viewfinder monitor mounted low down (ie not the

one

Post by Mortimer

Post by charles

on the camera) always has a green-phosphor screen.

my suspicion is that they are B&W to the human eye - it's simply

the

Post by Mortimer

Post by charles
way a colour camera renders that phosphur makes it look green.

No, it's very strong green (like old green computer screens of the early
1980s) even to the naked eye.

Correct. It's also very bright the operator needs to be able to see
it from many angles possibly in full sunlight. Any thing above a
small hood isn't practical as it would restrict the viewing angle and
get in the way of the arm of the steadicam.

[john wright]

Post by Mortimer

Post by charles

Post by Mortimer
Looking at the various Steadicams that are being used for the election
programmes, and having seen them used in the past for filming drama (on
either film or video) I notice that the viewfinder monitor mounted low
down (ie not the one on the camera) always has a green-phosphor screen.
Why is this - why is it not either a colour screen or else a
white-phosphor black-and-white screen?

my suspicion is that they are B&W to the human eye - it's simply the way a
colour camera renders that phosphur makes it look green. No need for colour
on cameras viewfinder which is simply used for framing a shot. Nowadays,
of course, small colour displays have become much cheaper - so ...

No, it's very strong green (like old green computer screens of the early
1980s) even to the naked eye. So it's not just an artifact of another
camera viewing the monitor.

Is it so if any part of it accidentally gets into the frame it can be
easily masked?

[Dave Liquorice]

Post by john wright
Is it so if any part of it accidentally gets into the frame it can be
easily masked?

Something would have gone *seriously* wrong if the camera managed to
get the viewfinder directly in shot. Fixed pitch font, basic
steadicam:

+-----+/
+-CAM-+\
¦
BA ----G
¦
B V
\-+-/

The camera is mounted on the top of a pole with a gimble (G) in the
middle. The bottom of this pole has the batteries (B) and viewfinder
(V). The pole is spherically balanced about the gimble. BA is a
spring loaded "Bendy Arm" pivoted at each end one attached to the
gimble the other to the operators harness, it also bends in the
middle. The springs support the weight of the
pole/camera/batteries/viewfinder enabling it to "float".

[Andy Burns]

Post by Dave Liquorice

Post by john wright
Is it so if any part of it accidentally gets into the frame it can be
easily masked?

Something would have gone *seriously* wrong if the camera managed to
get the viewfinder directly in shot.

Another camera? Not unusual to see the steadicam operator in-shot in
sports coverage.

[Brian Gaff]

Green phosphor has traditionally a longer persistance, but cannot see how
this helps.

Brian
--
Brian Gaff....Note, this account does not accept Bcc: email.
graphics are great, but the blind can't hear them
Email: ***@blueyonder.co.uk
______________________________________________________________________________________________________________

Post by john wright
Is it so if any part of it accidentally gets into the frame it can be
easily masked?

Something would have gone *seriously* wrong if the camera managed to
get the viewfinder directly in shot. Fixed pitch font, basic
steadicam:

+-----+/
+-CAM-+\
Š
BA ----G
Š
B V
\-+-/

The camera is mounted on the top of a pole with a gimble (G) in the
middle. The bottom of this pole has the batteries (B) and viewfinder
(V). The pole is spherically balanced about the gimble. BA is a
spring loaded "Bendy Arm" pivoted at each end one attached to the
gimble the other to the operators harness, it also bends in the
middle. The springs support the weight of the
pole/camera/batteries/viewfinder enabling it to "float".

[Vic]

Post by charles

Post by Mortimer
Looking at the various Steadicams that are being used for the election
programmes, and having seen them used in the past for filming drama (on
either film or video) I notice that the viewfinder monitor mounted low
down (ie not the one on the camera) always has a green-phosphor screen.
Why is this - why is it not either a colour screen or else a
white-phosphor black-and-white screen?

my suspicion is that they are B&W to the human eye - it's simply the way a
colour camera renders that phosphur makes it look green. No need for colour
on cameras viewfinder which is simply used for framing a shot. Nowadays,
of course, small colour displays have become much cheaper - so ...

Steadicams are frequently used outdoors and in bright sunlight and because
the monitor has to be viewable from all angles, the use of a hood or
sunshade is impractical. The solution is to have a very bright display.
Historically, it has been easier to produce a brighter display using a green
CRT and this is what Steadicam supply with their kit.

On the green CRT, it is possible to turn the brightness up without losing
sharpness, which does tend to happen on B&W screens.

In recent times, other options have become available, including colour and
high brightness LCD displays, but these tend to be expensive and most
operators prefer to stick to the original green CRT monitor.

Unfortunately, the specialised LCD screens, which have sufficient brightness
and full resolution, and can take SDI or HDSDI inputs are still very
expensive.

The reason why viewfinders in broadcast applications have been predominantly
B&W is again historical. It has not been possible to produce a small colour
CRT display that would have the same resolution as a B&W one. This is mainly
to do with the size of the stripes on the shadow mask used in a colour CRT.
Sony did produce a colour CRT viewfinder some years ago, but this was very
expensive, large and heavy and had high power consumption, so most
broadcasters tended to stick with the B&W.

More recently, since the advent of LDC displays, colour viewfinders have
become more common, but there are still drawbacks. Resolution is still not
full HD so for focus-critical applications this can be a problem. The main
issue, however, is lag which makes the following of fast moving subjects
(e.g. sports) very difficult if not impossible. Sony do now produce a 9 inch
LCD viewfinder which has reasonably low lag, but it's still not as good as a
monochrome CRT and the price is nearly 4 times that of a standard
viewfinder. Most accountants will not understand that, in order for the
cameraman to be able to see that a shot is out of focus before the viewer
notices on his 48-inch HD plasma, the viewfinder has to be the best money
can buy.

Vic.

[Mortimer]

Post by Vic
Steadicams are frequently used outdoors and in bright sunlight and because
the monitor has to be viewable from all angles, the use of a hood or
sunshade is impractical. The solution is to have a very bright display.
Historically, it has been easier to produce a brighter display using a
green CRT and this is what Steadicam supply with their kit.
On the green CRT, it is possible to turn the brightness up without losing
sharpness, which does tend to happen on B&W screens.

That all sounds very plausible. I hadn't realised that green CRTs retain
their sharpness better than white CRTs when you turn the brightness up.

I knew the reason for TV cameras in general having B&W rather than colour
viewfinders - easier for the cameraman to judge focus, at the expense of
needing someone else to monitor the pictures remotely to judge white balance
and other colour casts.

[Graham.]

Steadicams are frequently used outdoors and in bright sunlight and because the monitor has to be viewable from all angles, the
use of a hood or sunshade is impractical. The solution is to have a very bright display. Historically, it has been easier to
produce a brighter display using a green CRT and this is what Steadicam supply with their kit.
On the green CRT, it is possible to turn the brightness up without losing sharpness, which does tend to happen on B&W screens.

That all sounds very plausible. I hadn't realised that green CRTs retain their sharpness better than white CRTs when you turn the
brightness up.

I'm not sure they do.
What is probebly happening is the green phosphor requires less beam current
to poduce the same subjective brightness than a white phosphor so the green
one will be "turned up" less.

[Roderick Stewart]

Post by Vic
Steadicams are frequently used outdoors and in bright sunlight and because
the monitor has to be viewable from all angles, the use of a hood or
sunshade is impractical. The solution is to have a very bright display.
Historically, it has been easier to produce a brighter display using a green
CRT and this is what Steadicam supply with their kit.

The original ones did use CRTs with green phosphors, but knowing the reason for
this (which is exactly as you describe) I was astonished one day when presented
with one to fix in a workshop to discover that its viewfinder had a white CRT
with a green filter in front of it, which would of course reduce its efficiency
rather than increasing it. I can only guess that this choice for the later
versions was made on the basis of tradition rather than science.

Rod.

[red16v]

Post by Vic

Post by charles

Post by Mortimer
Looking at the various Steadicams that are being used for the election
programmes, and having seen them used in the past for filming drama (on
either film or video) I notice that the viewfinder monitor mounted low
down (ie not the one on the camera) always has a green-phosphor screen.
Why is this - why is it not either a colour screen or else a
white-phosphor black-and-white screen?

my suspicion is that they are B&W to the human eye - it's simply the way a
colour camera renders that phosphur makes it look green. No need for colour
on cameras viewfinder which is simply used for framing a shot.  Nowadays,
of course, small colour displays have become much cheaper - so ...

Steadicams are frequently used outdoors and in bright sunlight and because
the monitor has to be viewable from all angles, the use of a hood or
sunshade is impractical. The solution is to have a very bright display.
Historically, it has been easier to produce a brighter display using a green
CRT and this is what Steadicam supply with their kit.
On the green CRT, it is possible to turn the brightness up without losing
sharpness, which does tend to happen on B&W screens.
In recent times, other options have become available, including colour and
high brightness LCD displays, but these tend to be expensive and most
operators prefer to stick to the original green CRT monitor.
Unfortunately, the specialised LCD screens, which have sufficient brightness
and full resolution, and can take SDI or HDSDI inputs are still very
expensive.
The reason why viewfinders in broadcast applications have been predominantly
B&W is again historical. It has not been possible to produce a small colour
CRT display that would have the same resolution as a B&W one. This is mainly
to do with the size of the stripes on the shadow mask used in a colour CRT.
Sony did produce a colour CRT viewfinder some years ago, but this was very
expensive, large and heavy and had high power consumption, so most
broadcasters tended to stick with the B&W.
More recently, since the advent of LDC displays, colour viewfinders have
become more common, but there are still drawbacks. Resolution is still not
full HD so for focus-critical applications this can be a problem. The main
issue, however, is lag which makes the following of fast moving subjects
(e.g. sports) very difficult if not impossible. Sony do now produce a 9 inch
LCD viewfinder which has reasonably low lag, but it's still not as good as a
monochrome CRT and the price is nearly 4 times that of a standard
viewfinder. Most accountants will not understand that, in order for the
cameraman to be able to see that a shot is out of focus before the viewer
notices on his 48-inch HD plasma, the viewfinder has to be the best money
can buy.
Vic.

I think Link produced colour viewfinders on their series of cameras
way back. I don't have any personal experience.

Certainly Sony now supply OLED viewfinders - very good, but you have
to be careful of screen burn so by default they are set to go into
standby after a period of inactivity. You can disable that facility -
buta mistake coudl be very expensive. I guess they must analyse the
scene information and determine if the camera picture is changing or
not. Mind you - they are £11k a pop. I think Ikegami can now supply
them too.

[tony sayer]

Post by red16v
I think Link produced colour viewfinders on their series of cameras
way back. I don't have any personal experience.
Certainly Sony now supply OLED viewfinders - very good, but you have
to be careful of screen burn so by default they are set to go into
standby after a period of inactivity. You can disable that facility -
buta mistake coudl be very expensive. I guess they must analyse the
scene information and determine if the camera picture is changing or
not.
Mind you - they are £11k a pop.

What just the viewfinder screen!?....

Post by red16v
I think Ikegami can now supply
them too.

[Mark Carver]

Post by tony sayer

Post by red16v
I think Link produced colour viewfinders on their series of cameras
way back. I don't have any personal experience.
Certainly Sony now supply OLED viewfinders - very good, but you have
to be careful of screen burn so by default they are set to go into
standby after a period of inactivity. You can disable that facility -
buta mistake coudl be very expensive. I guess they must analyse the
scene information and determine if the camera picture is changing or
not.
Mind you - they are £11k a pop.

What just the viewfinder screen!?....

Yup, though relatively small beer compared to the camera itself, its CCU, the
fibre or triax cable, the peds, and if there's a 100x zoom HD quality lens
that's the best part of £100k alone.

Expensive business, proper telly.

[tony sayer]

Post by Mark Carver

Post by tony sayer

Post by red16v
I think Link produced colour viewfinders on their series of cameras
way back. I don't have any personal experience.
Certainly Sony now supply OLED viewfinders - very good, but you have
to be careful of screen burn so by default they are set to go into
standby after a period of inactivity. You can disable that facility -
buta mistake coudl be very expensive. I guess they must analyse the
scene information and determine if the camera picture is changing or
not.
Mind you - they are £11k a pop.

What just the viewfinder screen!?....

Yup, though relatively small beer compared to the camera itself, its CCU, the
fibre or triax cable, the peds, and if there's a 100x zoom HD quality lens
that's the best part of £100k alone.
Expensive business, proper telly.

Yes.. Makes you wonder why they go to all that expense when the result
as seen by the average bit rate reduced viewer isn't that much better
then a home video;!..


Still seems bloody expensive .. suppose their made by Welsh virgins
under a full moon somewhere obscure in Wales;?..

[Vic]

Post by Mark Carver

Post by tony sayer

Post by red16v
I think Link produced colour viewfinders on their series of cameras
way back. I don't have any personal experience.
Certainly Sony now supply OLED viewfinders - very good, but you have
to be careful of screen burn so by default they are set to go into
standby after a period of inactivity. You can disable that facility -
buta mistake coudl be very expensive. I guess they must analyse the
scene information and determine if the camera picture is changing or
not.
Mind you - they are £11k a pop.

What just the viewfinder screen!?....

Yup, though relatively small beer compared to the camera itself, its CCU,
the fibre or triax cable, the peds, and if there's a 100x zoom HD quality
lens that's the best part of £100k alone.
Expensive business, proper telly.

You can probably double that.

Vinten Quattro camera pedestal - GBP 25,000
Vinten Vector 750 pan & tilt head - GBP 8,000
Sony HDC 1550 camera - GBP 57,000
Sony HDCU 1500 camera control unit - GBP 19,000
Sony HDVF EL-75 viewfinder - GBP 14,000
Canon XJ100x9.3B IE D lens - GBP 80,000
TOTAL (approx.) GBP 203,000

Does not include fibre cables, lens controls, OCP and other minor bits and
pieces. But it does include VAT.

[Tony Quinn]

Post by tony sayer

Post by red16v
I think Link produced colour viewfinders on their series of cameras
way back. I don't have any personal experience.
Certainly Sony now supply OLED viewfinders - very good, but you have
to be careful of screen burn so by default they are set to go into
standby after a period of inactivity. You can disable that facility -
buta mistake coudl be very expensive. I guess they must analyse the
scene information and determine if the camera picture is changing or
not.
Mind you - they are £11k a pop.

What just the viewfinder screen!?....

Yes (and 11k is optimistic in the extreme)

http://www.sony.co.uk/biz/view/ShowProduct.action?product=HDVF-EL100&site
=biz_en_GB&pageType=Overview&category=VFAndHoods

At Mitcorp the Viewfinder is a bit under £25k including the VAT

it would appear that the domestic version

http://www.dixons.co.uk/gbuk/sony-xel-1-ultra-slim-11-oled-tv-03895997-pd
t.html?srcid=867&xtor=AL-78

is the ones that have been rejected through QC

[tony sayer]

Post by Tony Quinn

Post by tony sayer

Post by red16v
I think Link produced colour viewfinders on their series of cameras
way back. I don't have any personal experience.
Certainly Sony now supply OLED viewfinders - very good, but you have
to be careful of screen burn so by default they are set to go into
standby after a period of inactivity. You can disable that facility -
buta mistake coudl be very expensive. I guess they must analyse the
scene information and determine if the camera picture is changing or
not.
Mind you - they are £11k a pop.

What just the viewfinder screen!?....

Yes (and 11k is optimistic in the extreme)
http://www.sony.co.uk/biz/view/ShowProduct.action?product=HDVF-EL100&site
=biz_en_GB&pageType=Overview&category=VFAndHoods
At Mitcorp the Viewfinder is a bit under £25k including the VAT
it would appear that the domestic version
http://www.dixons.co.uk/gbuk/sony-xel-1-ultra-slim-11-oled-tv-03895997-pd
t.html?srcid=867&xtor=AL-78
is the ones that have been rejected through QC

OK so there fine for SD Telly via freeview then so thats alright;!..

See them running off the shelves at Two and a half grand a pop!...

[red16v]

Post by Tony Quinn

Post by tony sayer

Post by red16v
I think Link produced colour viewfinders on their series of cameras
way back. I don't have any personal experience.
Certainly Sony now supply OLED viewfinders - very good, but you have
to be careful of screen burn so by default they are set to go into
standby after a period of inactivity. You can disable that facility -
buta mistake coudl be very expensive. I guess they must analyse the
scene information and determine if the camera picture is changing or
not.
Mind you - they are £11k a pop.

What just the viewfinder screen!?....

Yes (and 11k is optimistic in the extreme)
http://www.sony.co.uk/biz/view/ShowProduct.action?product=HDVF-EL100&...
=biz_en_GB&pageType=Overview&category=VFAndHoods
At Mitcorp the Viewfinder is a bit under £25k including the VAT
it would appear that the domestic version
http://www.dixons.co.uk/gbuk/sony-xel-1-ultra-slim-11-oled-tv-0389599...
t.html?srcid=867&xtor=AL-78
is the ones that have been rejected through QC
--
If one person has delusions, we call them psychotic. If, however, 1.5 billion
people have delusions we must apparently call them a religious group, and
respect their delusionary state.

I'm afraid I couldn't get your first link to work, and the second
doesn't seem to go to any Sony products - but perhaps a domestic
electronics supplier changes pages quite rapidly.

£11k is the discounted price for the complete Sony viewfinder, but I'm
sure it must depend on who is buying, how many, is this prestigious
'first product launch' customer etc, and how badly Sony (or indeed any
supplier) wants to sell - also the possibility of a sale 'now' -
leading to further orders in the future. Same with Lenses - who on
earth pays mrrp? Fujinon discount massively, and will double the
warranty period, if you are buying enough from them and twist their
arm. I'm sure Canon etc are the same, they are after all, all
competing in the same market.

[red16v]

Post by red16v

Post by Tony Quinn

Post by tony sayer

Post by red16v
I think Link produced colour viewfinders on their series of cameras
way back. I don't have any personal experience.
Certainly Sony now supply OLED viewfinders - very good, but you have
to be careful of screen burn so by default they are set to go into
standby after a period of inactivity. You can disable that facility -
buta mistake coudl be very expensive. I guess they must analyse the
scene information and determine if the camera picture is changing or
not.
Mind you - they are £11k a pop.

What just the viewfinder screen!?....

Yes (and 11k is optimistic in the extreme)
http://www.sony.co.uk/biz/view/ShowProduct.action?product=HDVF-EL100&...
=biz_en_GB&pageType=Overview&category=VFAndHoods
At Mitcorp the Viewfinder is a bit under £25k including the VAT
it would appear that the domestic version
http://www.dixons.co.uk/gbuk/sony-xel-1-ultra-slim-11-oled-tv-0389599...
t.html?srcid=867&xtor=AL-78
is the ones that have been rejected through QC
--
If one person has delusions, we call them psychotic. If, however, 1.5 billion
people have delusions we must apparently call them a religious group, and
respect their delusionary state.

I'm afraid I couldn't get your first link to work, and the second
doesn't seem to go to any Sony products - but perhaps a domestic
electronics supplier changes pages quite rapidly.
£11k is the discounted price for the complete Sony viewfinder, but I'm
sure it must depend on who is buying, how many, is this prestigious
'first product launch' customer etc, and how badly Sony (or indeed any
supplier) wants to sell - also the possibility of a sale 'now' -
leading to further orders in the future. Same with Lenses - who on
earth pays mrrp? Fujinon discount massively, and will double the
warranty period, if you are buying enough from them and twist their
arm. I'm sure Canon etc are the same, they are after all, all
competing in the same market.- Hide quoted text -
- Show quoted text -

Update. Tony I got your first link to work - my mistake, I only cut
and pasted the first half of the link. It is a beauty.

[red16v]

Sony are now demonstrating their 7" OLED camera viewfinder -
discounted price = £6k.

[Brian Gaff]

OK, well, here goes some suggestions. I cannot see these but when I messed
with colour cameras we had the problem of colour temperature to contend
with. So, if you set it up for nice colour in the outdoors, In a fluorescent
light, everyone looked green/yellow, and of course like sunburned folk in
ordinary tungsten light, but the eye saw no difference as the brain
corrected things.

So, if these monitors were cheap lcd b/w, they probably had naff lights in
them that looked green/yellow. Howevedr I don't know what crts might be
doing as normally in my experience b/w crts, end up looking blue.

Brian
--
Brian Gaff....Note, this account does not accept Bcc: email.
graphics are great, but the blind can't hear them
Email: ***@blueyonder.co.uk
______________________________________________________________________________________________________________

Post by charles

Post by Mortimer
Looking at the various Steadicams that are being used for the election
programmes, and having seen them used in the past for filming drama (on
either film or video) I notice that the viewfinder monitor mounted low
down (ie not the one on the camera) always has a green-phosphor screen.
Why is this - why is it not either a colour screen or else a
white-phosphor black-and-white screen?

my suspicion is that they are B&W to the human eye - it's simply the way a
colour camera renders that phosphur makes it look green. No need for colour
on cameras viewfinder which is simply used for framing a shot. Nowadays,
of course, small colour displays have become much cheaper - so ...
--
From KT24
Using a RISC OS computer running v5.16