Do We Still Need the Pips?

[J. P. Gilliver]

With digital delays, the answer has to be negative.
Chris

Not for time precision, no (although if you listen to them on FM [or I
presume AM], they're close enough to set most clocks and watches).

But as a cultural meme, I'd be sad to see them go.

[Theo]

Post by J. P. Gilliver

With digital delays, the answer has to be negative.
Chris

Not for time precision, no (although if you listen to them on FM [or I
presume AM], they're close enough to set most clocks and watches).
But as a cultural meme, I'd be sad to see them go.

They just signify 'here is the news' at this point, like the Big Ben bongs
for News at Ten, or the 45 seconds of pompous flummery on the BBC News
Channel.

Theo

[J. P. Gilliver]

Post by Theo

Post by J. P. Gilliver

With digital delays, the answer has to be negative.
Chris

Not for time precision, no (although if you listen to them on FM [or I
presume AM], they're close enough to set most clocks and watches).
But as a cultural meme, I'd be sad to see them go.

They just signify 'here is the news' at this point, like the Big Ben bongs
for News at Ten, or the 45 seconds of pompous flummery on the BBC News
Channel.
Theo

That's your opinion, and you're entitled to it. I think they're a bit
more than that - as I said if you use the FM feed, they're close enough
to set your watch by.

I agree about the BBC News countdown - I don't think there's any
pretence that it counts down to the hour, even allowing for the variable
digital processing time. Sometime last year they even stopped it being a
frame counter and changed it to centiseconds (which of course can't be
displayed on a 25i - or even 50p - system). Well, I wouldn't call it
pompous, but it _is_ often amusingly anachronistic: does any
professional still use a luggable camera with a CRT viewfinder, for
example?

[Brian Gaff]

Are you suggesting that the BBC live in the past? grin.
There was a very funny skit on what might be going on during the run in to
news bulletins many years ago. The idea seemed to be that it gave just
enough time for the staff to stop snogging each other and sort their
makeup out.
Brian
--
--:
This newsgroup posting comes to you directly from...
The Sofa of Brian Gaff...
***@blueyonder.co.uk
Blind user, so no pictures please
Note this Signature is meaningless.!

Post by Theo

Post by J. P. Gilliver

With digital delays, the answer has to be negative.
Chris

Not for time precision, no (although if you listen to them on FM [or I
presume AM], they're close enough to set most clocks and watches).
But as a cultural meme, I'd be sad to see them go.

They just signify 'here is the news' at this point, like the Big Ben bongs
for News at Ten, or the 45 seconds of pompous flummery on the BBC News
Channel.
Theo

That's your opinion, and you're entitled to it. I think they're a bit more
than that - as I said if you use the FM feed, they're close enough to set
your watch by.
I agree about the BBC News countdown - I don't think there's any pretence
that it counts down to the hour, even allowing for the variable digital
processing time. Sometime last year they even stopped it being a frame
counter and changed it to centiseconds (which of course can't be displayed
on a 25i - or even 50p - system). Well, I wouldn't call it pompous, but it
_is_ often amusingly anachronistic: does any professional still use a
luggable camera with a CRT viewfinder, for example?
--
you can't blame boomers for everything. - Joe Queenan, RT 2023/6/24-30

[J. P. Gilliver]

Post by Brian Gaff
Are you suggesting that the BBC live in the past? grin.

As do many of their audience, so both are happy with each other! Grin.

Post by Brian Gaff
There was a very funny skit on what might be going on during the run in to
news bulletins many years ago. The idea seemed to be that it gave just
enough time for the staff to stop snogging each other and sort their
makeup out.
Brian

I think that was either Whoops Apocalypse or Drop the Dead Donkey, or
maybe both.

[J. P. Gilliver]

<https://www.bbc.co.uk/sounds/play/m001w0yw>

I do.

Because?
Chris

People who want to abolish them give me the pip ... (-:

(Or, in general, who want to abolish/change something just for the sake
of it where keeping it involves minimal effort/expense.)

[Tweed]

Post by J. P. Gilliver

<https://www.bbc.co.uk/sounds/play/m001w0yw>

I do.

Because?
Chris

(Or, in general, who want to abolish/change something just for the sake
of it where keeping it involves minimal effort/expense.)

The problem is that the pips on DAB or live stream are misleading. It’s
wrong to broadcast a time signal that can be very many seconds off. Not
everyone is aware of the limitations.

[Max Demian]

Post by Tweed

Post by J. P. Gilliver

<https://www.bbc.co.uk/sounds/play/m001w0yw>

I do.

Because?

(Or, in general, who want to abolish/change something just for the sake
of it where keeping it involves minimal effort/expense.)

The problem is that the pips on DAB or live stream are misleading. It’s
wrong to broadcast a time signal that can be very many seconds off. Not
everyone is aware of the limitations.

I use the (usually 8am R4) pips on FM to check/set clocks & watches as
required.

[Mark Carver]

Post by Max Demian

Post by Tweed

Post by J. P. Gilliver

<https://www.bbc.co.uk/sounds/play/m001w0yw>

I do.

Because?

(Or, in general, who want to abolish/change something just for the sake
of it where keeping it involves minimal effort/expense.)

The problem is that the pips on DAB or live stream are misleading. It’s
wrong to broadcast a time signal that can be very many seconds off. Not
everyone is aware of the limitations.

I use the (usually 8am R4) pips on FM to check/set clocks & watches as
required.

The +/-10 second accuracy is good enough for domestic use.

It's a different matter if you're NASA, firing a burn to propel
something in the right direction towards Pluto

[Andy Burns]

Post by Mark Carver

Post by Max Demian
I use the (usually 8am R4) pips on FM to check/set clocks & watches as
required.

The +/-10 second accuracy is good enough for domestic use.

Most homes have at least one mobile phone, which I find are within +/- 1
second of any "good" time source I compare them to ...

[John Williamson]

Post by Andy Burns

Post by Mark Carver

Post by Max Demian
I use the (usually 8am R4) pips on FM to check/set clocks & watches
as required.

The +/-10 second accuracy is good enough for domestic use.

Most homes have at least one mobile phone, which I find are within +/- 1
second of any "good" time source I compare them to ...

Mobile phones take their time reference from the network servers, which
in turn use either the GPS or NPL references.

[Brian Gaff]

Bad example, actually there is quite a leeway on many rocket launches as
modern computers can calculate in real time to get the spacecraft to the
right place nowadays.

I was just thinking as to when good time keeping might be needed and how to
get it. Certainly out of doors, GPS Satellites are the place to go, since
the system reads their clocks as part of the position computing. Brian
--
--:
This newsgroup posting comes to you directly from...
The Sofa of Brian Gaff...
***@blueyonder.co.uk
Blind user, so no pictures please
Note this Signature is meaningless.!

Post by Mark Carver

Post by Max Demian

Post by J. P. Gilliver

<https://www.bbc.co.uk/sounds/play/m001w0yw>

I do.

Because?

(Or, in general, who want to abolish/change something just for the sake
of it where keeping it involves minimal effort/expense.)

The problem is that the pips on DAB or live stream are misleading. It's
wrong to broadcast a time signal that can be very many seconds off. Not
everyone is aware of the limitations.

I use the (usually 8am R4) pips on FM to check/set clocks & watches as
required.

The +/-10 second accuracy is good enough for domestic use.
It's a different matter if you're NASA, firing a burn to propel something
in the right direction towards Pluto

[J. P. Gilliver]

Post by Brian Gaff
Bad example, actually there is quite a leeway on many rocket launches as
modern computers can calculate in real time to get the spacecraft to the
right place nowadays.
I was just thinking as to when good time keeping might be needed and how to
get it. Certainly out of doors, GPS Satellites are the place to go, since
the system reads their clocks as part of the position computing. Brian

I remember when the GP system was just being set up - not all the
satellites up, or something - being shown with some pride by a colleague
at work a GPS receiver; it was a full-size PC plug-in card, and he had
what must have been an unusual laptop as it could take such a card
(though only one). He proudly told me - with a twinkle in his eye, he
was like that - that B block, the building we were in, was proceeding at
X knots in a ?erly direction.

[Max Demian]

Post by Mark Carver

Post by Max Demian
I use the (usually 8am R4) pips on FM to check/set clocks & watches as
required.

The +/-10 second accuracy is good enough for domestic use.
It's a different matter if you're NASA, firing a burn to propel
something in the right direction towards Pluto

That is something which I very rarely do.

[Brian Gaff]

Why are not all clocks radio clocks so they set themselves. It surely cannot
be that expensive, even some cheap watches do it.
Brian
--
--:
This newsgroup posting comes to you directly from...
The Sofa of Brian Gaff...
***@blueyonder.co.uk
Blind user, so no pictures please
Note this Signature is meaningless.!

Post by Max Demian

Post by J. P. Gilliver

<https://www.bbc.co.uk/sounds/play/m001w0yw>

I do.

Because?

(Or, in general, who want to abolish/change something just for the sake
of it where keeping it involves minimal effort/expense.)

The problem is that the pips on DAB or live stream are misleading. It's
wrong to broadcast a time signal that can be very many seconds off. Not
everyone is aware of the limitations.

I use the (usually 8am R4) pips on FM to check/set clocks & watches as
required.
--
Max Demian

[JMB99]

Post by Brian Gaff
Why are not all clocks radio clocks so they set themselves. It surely cannot
be that expensive, even some cheap watches do it.

Cost.

[Roderick Stewart]

Post by Brian Gaff
Why are not all clocks radio clocks so they set themselves. It surely cannot
be that expensive, even some cheap watches do it.

Cost.

You can buy a radio controlled wall clock from Argos for less than
twenty quid. Some of the ones that *don't* have the radio timecode
feature are more expensive, which suggests that this is not the main
determinant of price.

Rod.

[J. P. Gilliver]

Post by Brian Gaff
Why are not all clocks radio clocks so they set themselves. It surely cannot
be that expensive, even some cheap watches do it.
Brian

Same reason not all (weighing - bathroom or kitchen) scales/clocks, and
many other appliances, don't have speech output. Though it wouldn't cost
_much_, the manufacturers won't do it if it costs _any_ more, and they
don't think they'd get enough extra sales to justify it.

(I agree: I have a radio-locked one in my kitchen I bought from Lidl
many years ago. Runs for several years on a single AA [and yes, it is
genuinely radio-locked, not just claiming to be]; can't have been that
expensive.)

[Liz Tuddenham]

Post by J. P. Gilliver

Post by Brian Gaff
Why are not all clocks radio clocks so they set themselves. It surely cannot
be that expensive, even some cheap watches do it.
Brian

Same reason not all (weighing - bathroom or kitchen) scales/clocks, and
many other appliances, don't have speech output. Though it wouldn't cost
_much_, the manufacturers won't do it if it costs _any_ more, and they
don't think they'd get enough extra sales to justify it.
(I agree: I have a radio-locked one in my kitchen I bought from Lidl
many years ago. Runs for several years on a single AA [and yes, it is
genuinely radio-locked, not just claiming to be]; can't have been that
expensive.)

I bought one from Argos a few years ago, it was radio-locked but the
hands could be anything up to a quarter of a minute out. Utterly
useless, so I returned it as "unfit for purpose".

[Woody]

Post by Liz Tuddenham
I bought one from Argos a few years ago, it was radio-locked but the
hands could be anything up to a quarter of a minute out.  Utterly
useless, so I returned it as "unfit for purpose".

I had a number of digital ones from Argos that lasted for years bjt
several are now faulty - I think there was one originally that I could
never get off Berlin Time!

Er, Frankfurt on 77.5kHz?

[J. P. Gilliver]

In message <1qox5vl.14jrnsn1nkqzn2N%***@poppyrecords.invalid.invalid> at
Wed, 14 Feb 2024 13:13:57, Liz Tuddenham
[]

Post by Liz Tuddenham

Post by J. P. Gilliver
(I agree: I have a radio-locked one in my kitchen I bought from Lidl
many years ago. Runs for several years on a single AA [and yes, it is
genuinely radio-locked, not just claiming to be]; can't have been that
expensive.)

I bought one from Argos a few years ago, it was radio-locked but the
hands could be anything up to a quarter of a minute out. Utterly
useless, so I returned it as "unfit for purpose".

Ah, my Lidl one is LCD, not hands. Auriol model 4-LD3010-3 (Lidl IAN
56184), bought for 4.99 on 17.03.11 (so 13 years ago!). [I'm an
inveterate box and receipt keeper!] Even has a temperature readout!

[JMB99]

Post by J. P. Gilliver
Ah, my Lidl one is LCD, not hands. Auriol model 4-LD3010-3 (Lidl IAN
56184), bought for 4.99 on 17.03.11 (so 13 years ago!). [I'm an
inveterate box and receipt keeper!] Even has a temperature readout!

I think the digital display ones were LIDL (and many have failed) not Argos.

[Chris J Dixon]

I had a number of digital ones from Argos that lasted for years bjt
several are now faulty - I think there was one originally that I could
never get off Berlin Time!
A couple of years ago I bought analogue ones and they are lasting well,
easy to read and keep good time.

I have a conceptual issue with digital clocks. I would say that
there are two main reasons for looking at a clock. One is to know
what the time is now, the other is to accurately synchronise some
operation.

Assume that the digital clock is set to increment the minute
precisely at the time indicated, and seconds are not displayed.

The time shown will then be up to 59 seconds slow, and the error
overall would be minimised if changeover was initiated 30 seconds
later.

This, however is not useful if you want to set your analogue
clock in synch.

Chris

[Tweed]

Post by Chris J Dixon

I had a number of digital ones from Argos that lasted for years bjt
several are now faulty - I think there was one originally that I could
never get off Berlin Time!
A couple of years ago I bought analogue ones and they are lasting well,
easy to read and keep good time.

I have a conceptual issue with digital clocks. I would say that
there are two main reasons for looking at a clock. One is to know
what the time is now, the other is to accurately synchronise some
operation.
Assume that the digital clock is set to increment the minute
precisely at the time indicated, and seconds are not displayed.
The time shown will then be up to 59 seconds slow, and the error
overall would be minimised if changeover was initiated 30 seconds
later.
This, however is not useful if you want to set your analogue
clock in synch.
Chris

Every digital display radio controlled clock that I’ve owned has a seconds
display.
What I find odd is that it is not possible to buy a cheap WiFi connected
clock that uses ntp to get the time.

[JMB99]

Post by Tweed
Every digital display radio controlled clock that I’ve owned has a seconds
display.
What I find odd is that it is not possible to buy a cheap WiFi connected
clock that uses ntp to get the time.

Presumably there is no market for that.

[JMB99]

Post by Tweed
The problem is that the pips on DAB or live stream are misleading. It’s
wrong to broadcast a time signal that can be very many seconds off. Not
everyone is aware of the limitations.

The ones who are not aware probably do not bother setting their watches
/ clocks often anyway.

[tony sayer]

Post by Tweed

Post by J. P. Gilliver

<https://www.bbc.co.uk/sounds/play/m001w0yw>

I do.

Because?
Chris

(Or, in general, who want to abolish/change something just for the sake
of it where keeping it involves minimal effort/expense.)

The problem is that the pips on DAB or live stream are misleading. It’s
wrong to broadcast a time signal that can be very many seconds off. Not
everyone is aware of the limitations.

But near enough for Joe Publick and his missus!..

[J. P. Gilliver]

Post by Tweed

Post by J. P. Gilliver

<https://www.bbc.co.uk/sounds/play/m001w0yw>

I do.

Because?
Chris

(Or, in general, who want to abolish/change something just for the sake
of it where keeping it involves minimal effort/expense.)

The problem is that the pips on DAB or live stream are misleading. It’s
wrong to broadcast a time signal that can be very many seconds off. Not
everyone is aware of the limitations.

That is a good point; ideally, the answer there would be to not
broadcast them on DAB/FreeView, but that probably starts to involve
expense.

[Brian Gaff]

The internet is far worse, add that over a sat link and it can be more than
a minute. As I said elsewhere in this thread. it would need some clever
calculation for it to appear at the same time everywhere, and then it would
crash into the program.
Brian
--
--:
This newsgroup posting comes to you directly from...
The Sofa of Brian Gaff...
***@blueyonder.co.uk
Blind user, so no pictures please
Note this Signature is meaningless.!

Post by J. P. Gilliver

<https://www.bbc.co.uk/sounds/play/m001w0yw>

I do.

Because?
Chris

(Or, in general, who want to abolish/change something just for the sake
of it where keeping it involves minimal effort/expense.)

The problem is that the pips on DAB or live stream are misleading. It's
wrong to broadcast a time signal that can be very many seconds off. Not
everyone is aware of the limitations.

That is a good point; ideally, the answer there would be to not broadcast
them on DAB/FreeView, but that probably starts to involve expense.
--
... the greatest musical festival in the world that doesn't involve mud.
- Eddie Mair, RT 2014/8/16-22

[Brian Gaff]

Was it not the Muppets who had the pips as pig noised and a pig reading the
news, um all about pigs followed by pigs in space? I'm going back a long way
here.
Brian
--
--:
This newsgroup posting comes to you directly from...
The Sofa of Brian Gaff...
***@blueyonder.co.uk
Blind user, so no pictures please
Note this Signature is meaningless.!

<https://www.bbc.co.uk/sounds/play/m001w0yw>

I do.

Because?
Chris

(Or, in general, who want to abolish/change something just for the sake of
it where keeping it involves minimal effort/expense.)
--
I love listening to music that make my eyes water.
- "Super8rescue" 2022

[Brian Gaff]

Yes well they were stopped some time back and I think are generated by the
bbc themselves with a countdown up to them to aid program producers. So I
wonder if there was some way that the delay could be accounted for on the
different media delivery systems. I'd imagine if a sat were involved it
would be the longest delay. However D
aB and internet can be worse sometimes but it seems to vary.
Brian
--
--:
This newsgroup posting comes to you directly from...
The Sofa of Brian Gaff...
***@blueyonder.co.uk
Blind user, so no pictures please
Note this Signature is meaningless.!

Post by J. P. Gilliver

With digital delays, the answer has to be negative.
Chris

Not for time precision, no (although if you listen to them on FM [or I
presume AM], they're close enough to set most clocks and watches).
But as a cultural meme, I'd be sad to see them go.
--
[What's your guilty pleasure?] Why should you feel guilty about pleasure? -
Michel Roux Jr in Radio Times 2-8 February 2013

[Brian Gaff]

I was just thinking about time signals and clocks generally. I guess you
could have some kind of internal radio pips. Is the clock time you see on
tvs, computers and dab displays accurate and not tied to the transmission
delays? If it is it would seem to be pretty easy to generate a pip sound
alike internally and fade the sound down while they appear, no matter what
is actually broadcast and how much delay there was.
Brian
--
--:
This newsgroup posting comes to you directly from...
The Sofa of Brian Gaff...
***@blueyonder.co.uk
Blind user, so no pictures please
Note this Signature is meaningless.!

Post by Brian Gaff
Yes well they were stopped some time back and I think are generated by the
bbc themselves with a countdown up to them to aid program producers. So I
wonder if there was some way that the delay could be accounted for on the
different media delivery systems. I'd imagine if a sat were involved it
would be the longest delay. However D
aB and internet can be worse sometimes but it seems to vary.
Brian
--
This newsgroup posting comes to you directly from...
The Sofa of Brian Gaff...
Blind user, so no pictures please
Note this Signature is meaningless.!

Post by J. P. Gilliver

With digital delays, the answer has to be negative.
Chris

Not for time precision, no (although if you listen to them on FM [or I
presume AM], they're close enough to set most clocks and watches).
But as a cultural meme, I'd be sad to see them go.
--
[What's your guilty pleasure?] Why should you feel guilty about pleasure? -
Michel Roux Jr in Radio Times 2-8 February 2013

[Andy Burns]

Post by Brian Gaff
I was just thinking about time signals and clocks generally. I guess you
could have some kind of internal radio pips.

I think the News24 approach, i.e. having some pip-like noises in the
jingle that plays up to the start of the program roughly on the hour,
works well enough ...

[J. P. Gilliver]

Post by Andy Burns

Post by Brian Gaff
I was just thinking about time signals and clocks generally. I guess you
could have some kind of internal radio pips.

I think the News24 approach, i.e. having some pip-like noises in the
jingle that plays up to the start of the program roughly on the hour,
works well enough ...

I'm pretty sure the news24 countdown - even allowing for the varying
transmission delays - is only a jingle, not actually started so that it
reaches zero on the hour anywhere.
The pips on analogue radio FM are probably the most accurate.

[JMB99]

Post by J. P. Gilliver
The pips on analogue radio FM are probably the most accurate.

Certainly the most accurate easily accessible way of setting the time.

[John Williamson]

Post by JMB99

Post by J. P. Gilliver
The pips on analogue radio FM are probably the most accurate.

Certainly the most accurate easily accessible way of setting the time.

If a smartphone with a GPS receiver built in is available, the time
shown on that is within the error caused by the speed of light from
orbit. (If three or more satellites are within line of sight, that error
can be eliminated)

My phones, even the first digital phone I had, display network time,
which in turn is derived from GPS or NPL time.

[J. P. Gilliver]

Post by John Williamson

Post by JMB99

Post by J. P. Gilliver
The pips on analogue radio FM are probably the most accurate.

Certainly the most accurate easily accessible way of setting the time.

If a smartphone with a GPS receiver built in is available, the time
shown on that is within the error caused by the speed of light from
orbit. (If three or more satellites are within line of sight, that
error can be eliminated)
My phones, even the first digital phone I had, display network time,
which in turn is derived from GPS or NPL time.

But a 'phone with a clock isn't necessarily showing network time all the
time. I think if one has GPS and that's on, it probably does, but I have
a dumbphone - bough new in 2022 - that, although it displays a clock
when you wake it up, is _not_ even showing network time (it loses a bit;
currently showing 10:54, my PC is showing 10:56, and FreeView BBC1 is
showing 10:57).

[Max Demian]

Post by John Williamson

Post by JMB99

Post by J. P. Gilliver
The pips on analogue radio FM are probably the most accurate.

Certainly the most accurate easily accessible way of setting the time.

If a smartphone with a GPS receiver built in is available, the time
shown on that is within the error caused by the speed of light from
orbit. (If three or more satellites are within line of sight, that error
can be eliminated)
My phones, even the first digital phone I had, display network time,
which in turn is derived from GPS or NPL time.

My smartphone shows the time and it looks accurate, but how do I know
this is from the GPS satellites rather than synchronised via the
internet or cellphone system?

[John Williamson]

Post by Max Demian
My smartphone shows the time and it looks accurate, but how do I know
this is from the GPS satellites rather than synchronised via the
internet or cellphone system?

My Samsung A12 only gives me the option to use network time. My phone
service provider are silent on where they take their reference from.

My ancient Lenovo tablet gives me a choice of GPS, Network or set it
manually.

Both devices run Android.

[Andy Burns]

Post by Max Demian
My smartphone shows the time and it looks accurate, but how do I know
this is from the GPS satellites rather than synchronised via the
internet or cellphone system?

If a phone has GPS it *could* get time from satellites, but that might
take a lot of time and energy, far more likely the phone will use the
time information sent by the network* instead.



[*] Sending the date/time/timezone is optional for the network, and it's
allowed to have an accuracy in the order of minutes, but I generally
find it's accurate when compared to GPS/MSF master clocks.

[J. P. Gilliver]

Post by Andy Burns

Post by Max Demian
My smartphone shows the time and it looks accurate, but how do I know
this is from the GPS satellites rather than synchronised via the
internet or cellphone system?

If a phone has GPS it *could* get time from satellites, but that might
take a lot of time and energy, far more likely the phone will use the
time information sent by the network* instead.

I think a lot of 'phones with a GPS receiver built in have the ability
to turn it off (to save battery I think is the main reason - it's
receive-only, so not a privacy issue directly [though depending on the
local laws in your country it may be interrogatable for where you are]);
I would assume that, if the GPS receiver is on, any time the 'phone
displays is from the GPS.

Post by Andy Burns
[*] Sending the date/time/timezone is optional for the network, and
it's allowed to have an accuracy in the order of minutes, but I
generally find it's accurate when compared to GPS/MSF master clocks.

[Mike Headon]

Post by J. P. Gilliver

Post by Andy Burns

Post by Max Demian
My smartphone shows the time and it looks accurate, but how do I know
this is from the GPS satellites rather than synchronised via the
internet or cellphone system?

If a phone has GPS it *could* get time from satellites, but that might
take a lot of time and energy, far more likely the phone will use the
time information sent by the network* instead.

I think a lot of 'phones with a GPS receiver built in have the ability
to turn it off (to save battery I think is the main reason - it's
receive-only, so not a privacy issue directly [though depending on the
local laws in your country it may be interrogatable for where you are]);
I would assume that, if the GPS receiver is on, any time the 'phone
displays is from the GPS.

Post by Andy Burns
[*] Sending the date/time/timezone is optional for the network, and
it's allowed to have an accuracy in the order of minutes, but I
generally find it's accurate when compared to GPS/MSF master clocks.

The 'Commander' app on my iphone shows the time accurate to the second
against FM radio.

[Tweed]

Post by Andy Burns

Post by Max Demian
My smartphone shows the time and it looks accurate, but how do I know
this is from the GPS satellites rather than synchronised via the
internet or cellphone system?

If a phone has GPS it *could* get time from satellites, but that might
take a lot of time and energy, far more likely the phone will use the
time information sent by the network* instead.
[*] Sending the date/time/timezone is optional for the network, and it's
allowed to have an accuracy in the order of minutes, but I generally
find it's accurate when compared to GPS/MSF master clocks.

A phone isn’t going to get GPS time indoors. I imagine the cellular
networks have very accurate time these days. It’s quite hard not to, as the
easy way is to use NTP within the core. Mind you, I’ve noticed an
increasing number of cell sites sporting GPS antennas, so there must be a
need now either for very accurate time or perhaps they are being used as a
frequency standard (or both).

[JMB99]

Post by Tweed
A phone isn’t going to get GPS time indoors. I imagine the cellular
networks have very accurate time these days. It’s quite hard not to, as the
easy way is to use NTP within the core. Mind you, I’ve noticed an
increasing number of cell sites sporting GPS antennas, so there must be a
need now either for very accurate time or perhaps they are being used as a
frequency standard (or both).

Proper GPS receivers indicate whether they are receiving a sign and
usually how long since they last updated.

I have never seen a mobile phone indicate when it last updated.

[Andy Burns]

Post by JMB99
Proper GPS receivers indicate whether they are receiving a sign and
usually how long since they last updated.
I have never seen a mobile phone indicate when it last updated.

GPS Status app shows time since last fix.

[Andy Burns]

Post by Tweed
A phone isn’t going to get GPS time indoors.

Mine happily sees 20-30 satellites indoors (from multiple constellations)

Post by Tweed
I imagine the cellular
networks have very accurate time these days.

I wasn't suggesting they didn't provide accurate time, just that the GSM
specs don't require them to provide it at all, or require it to be accurate.

Post by Tweed
It’s quite hard not to, as the
easy way is to use NTP within the core. Mind you, I’ve noticed an
increasing number of cell sites sporting GPS antennas, so there must be a
need now either for very accurate time or perhaps they are being used as a
freque

[Tweed]

Post by Andy Burns

Post by Tweed
A phone isn’t going to get GPS time indoors.

Mine happily sees 20-30 satellites indoors (from multiple constellations)

You aren’t properly indoors :)

[J. P. Gilliver]

In message <urpcvl$dmng$***@dont-email.me> at Thu, 29 Feb 2024 07:50:13,
Tweed <***@gmail.com> writes
[]

Post by Tweed
A phone isn’t going to get GPS time indoors. I imagine the cellular

[]
Unless it's going to be indoors for a week or more, though, I'd imagine
its internal clock would keep it close enough for any common need for
knowing the time - certainly any human-involved, as opposed to
electronic, use. Assuming its GPS receiver is actually turned on when
it's outdoors (or at least within range).

[John Williamson]

Post by Andy Burns

Post by Max Demian
My smartphone shows the time and it looks accurate, but how do I know
this is from the GPS satellites rather than synchronised via the
internet or cellphone system?

If a phone has GPS it *could* get time from satellites, but that might
take a lot of time and energy, far more likely the phone will use the
time information sent by the network* instead.

Depending on the accuracy of the internal clock and the precision
required, it should be possible to periodically check the GPS time and
update the internal clock. Once an hour would be generous, once a day
sufficient.

As I use my phone for navigation, the GPSreceiver is frequemntlyive anyway.

Post by Andy Burns
[*] Sending the date/time/timezone is optional for the network, and it's
allowed to have an accuracy in the order of minutes, but I generally
find it's accurate when compared to GPS/MSF master clocks.

I got the impression that each data packet contained an origination and
time code to make assembly easier when packets are received out of order
due to factors such as base station switching?

[Andy Burns]

Post by John Williamson

Post by Andy Burns
Sending the date/time/timezone is optional for the network, and it's
allowed to have an accuracy in the order of minutes, but I generally
find it's accurate when compared to GPS/MSF master clocks.

I got the impression that each data packet contained an origination and
time code to make assembly easier when packets are received out of order
due to factors such as base station switching?

That's a different "network clock" not an absolute time as in UTC+/-TZ

The delta between base-station clocks is used when moving from cell-to-cell.

[Tweed]

Post by Andy Burns

Post by John Williamson

Post by Andy Burns
Sending the date/time/timezone is optional for the network, and it's
allowed to have an accuracy in the order of minutes, but I generally
find it's accurate when compared to GPS/MSF master clocks.

I got the impression that each data packet contained an origination and
time code to make assembly easier when packets are received out of order
due to factors such as base station switching?

That's a different "network clock" not an absolute time as in UTC+/-TZ
The delta between base-station clocks is used when moving from cell-to-cell.

https://time.is/

time.is is an interesting website. Claimed accuracy:

Time.is is synchronized with an atomic clock - the most accurate time
source in the world. The displayed time will normally have a precision of
0.02-0.10 seconds. The precision depends on your internet connection and
how busy your computer is.

It also measures the delta between what it thinks the time is and your
device’s system time.
My iPhone: 0.105 seconds, my iPad 0.126 seconds.

[John Williamson]

Post by Tweed
https://time.is/
Time.is is synchronized with an atomic clock - the most accurate time
source in the world. The displayed time will normally have a precision of
0.02-0.10 seconds. The precision depends on your internet connection and
how busy your computer is.
It also measures the delta between what it thinks the time is and your
device’s system time.
My iPhone: 0.105 seconds, my iPad 0.126 seconds.

It tells me that mine is 0.028 seconds out, but is not clear whether it
takes into account the ping time when calculating it.

Ping times of time.is from here ranged between 28 and 42 milliseconds.

[Tweed]

Post by John Williamson

Post by Tweed
https://time.is/
Time.is is synchronized with an atomic clock - the most accurate time
source in the world. The displayed time will normally have a precision of
0.02-0.10 seconds. The precision depends on your internet connection and
how busy your computer is.
It also measures the delta between what it thinks the time is and your
device’s system time.
My iPhone: 0.105 seconds, my iPad 0.126 seconds.

It tells me that mine is 0.028 seconds out, but is not clear whether it
takes into account the ping time when calculating it.
Ping times of time.is from here ranged between 28 and 42 milliseconds.

I’m assuming the site is using the ntp protocols to transmit the time.
Those protocols are able to compensate for the link delay.

[J. P. Gilliver]

Post by John Williamson

Post by Tweed
https://time.is/
Time.is is synchronized with an atomic clock - the most accurate time
source in the world. The displayed time will normally have a precision of
0.02-0.10 seconds. The precision depends on your internet connection and
how busy your computer is.
It also measures the delta between what it thinks the time is and your
device’s system time.
My iPhone: 0.105 seconds, my iPad 0.126 seconds.

It tells me that mine is 0.028 seconds out, but is not clear whether it
takes into account the ping time when calculating it.
Ping times of time.is from here ranged between 28 and 42 milliseconds.

Ping times. When I worked at the BAE SYSTEMS Advanced Technology Centre
(originally Marconi Research Centre), one of their few products (it was
mainly a research centre, but did some manufacture) was something called
the IFMS, intermediate frequency management system. (Dull name, but the
name had become established before we could name it something snappier.)
We sold a few tens of them - I think - to ESA (the European Space
Agency). [It's a rack-mounted thing full of cards - roughly a cube,
IIRR.] One of its functions was to establish to amazing accuracy - I
think metres, which isn't bad when you're talking of something in the
vicinity of Mars - exactly where a space probe is.

Of course, thinking about _when_ that position was established - i. e.
when you asked it, when it replied, or when the reply came back - does
your head in ... (ping times for a Mars probe are quite long!)

We did, I was told, manage to tell ESA that one of their ground stations
wasn't (by a few tens of centimetres) exactly where they thought it was.

[Jeff Layman]

Post by Tweed

Post by Andy Burns

Post by John Williamson

Post by Andy Burns
Sending the date/time/timezone is optional for the network, and it's
allowed to have an accuracy in the order of minutes, but I generally
find it's accurate when compared to GPS/MSF master clocks.

I got the impression that each data packet contained an origination and
time code to make assembly easier when packets are received out of order
due to factors such as base station switching?

That's a different "network clock" not an absolute time as in UTC+/-TZ
The delta between base-station clocks is used when moving from cell-to-cell.

https://time.is/
Time.is is synchronized with an atomic clock - the most accurate time
source in the world. The displayed time will normally have a precision of
0.02-0.10 seconds. The precision depends on your internet connection and
how busy your computer is.
It also measures the delta between what it thinks the time is and your
device’s system time.
My iPhone: 0.105 seconds, my iPad 0.126 seconds.

How does it know where you are? I don't use my home location at any
time, and often applications assume I'm in Rochdale (as my ISP is Zen,
who are based in Rochdale). I'm actually about 250 miles away.

Time.is reports:
"Your time is exact!
The difference from Time.is was +0.001 seconds (±0.070 seconds).
Time in Liverpool, United Kingdom now:
11:26:31"

Why Liverpool, when it's about 40 miles from Rochdale (and,
incidentally, not in the direction I live)?

[Tweed]

Post by Jeff Layman

Post by Tweed

Post by Andy Burns

Post by John Williamson

Post by Andy Burns
Sending the date/time/timezone is optional for the network, and it's
allowed to have an accuracy in the order of minutes, but I generally
find it's accurate when compared to GPS/MSF master clocks.

I got the impression that each data packet contained an origination and
time code to make assembly easier when packets are received out of order
due to factors such as base station switching?

That's a different "network clock" not an absolute time as in UTC+/-TZ
The delta between base-station clocks is used when moving from cell-to-cell.

https://time.is/
Time.is is synchronized with an atomic clock - the most accurate time
source in the world. The displayed time will normally have a precision of
0.02-0.10 seconds. The precision depends on your internet connection and
how busy your computer is.
It also measures the delta between what it thinks the time is and your
device’s system time.
My iPhone: 0.105 seconds, my iPad 0.126 seconds.

How does it know where you are? I don't use my home location at any
time, and often applications assume I'm in Rochdale (as my ISP is Zen,
who are based in Rochdale). I'm actually about 250 miles away.
"Your time is exact!
The difference from Time.is was +0.001 seconds (±0.070 seconds).
11:26:31"
Why Liverpool, when it's about 40 miles from Rochdale (and,
incidentally, not in the direction I live)?

It uses geolocation of your IP address. Geolocation is hit and miss at the
best of times. I’m geolocated to the headquarters of my niche ISP. When I
was on Virgin Media I seemed to move around the country as VM moved and
traded blocks of IP addresses.

https://www.geolocation.com/en_us amongst many similar sites will return
where “they” think you are.

[Jeff Layman]

Post by Tweed

Post by Jeff Layman

Post by Tweed

Post by Andy Burns

Post by John Williamson

Post by Andy Burns
Sending the date/time/timezone is optional for the network, and it's
allowed to have an accuracy in the order of minutes, but I generally
find it's accurate when compared to GPS/MSF master clocks.

I got the impression that each data packet contained an origination and
time code to make assembly easier when packets are received out of order
due to factors such as base station switching?

That's a different "network clock" not an absolute time as in UTC+/-TZ
The delta between base-station clocks is used when moving from cell-to-cell.

https://time.is/
Time.is is synchronized with an atomic clock - the most accurate time
source in the world. The displayed time will normally have a precision of
0.02-0.10 seconds. The precision depends on your internet connection and
how busy your computer is.
It also measures the delta between what it thinks the time is and your
device’s system time.
My iPhone: 0.105 seconds, my iPad 0.126 seconds.

How does it know where you are? I don't use my home location at any
time, and often applications assume I'm in Rochdale (as my ISP is Zen,
who are based in Rochdale). I'm actually about 250 miles away.
"Your time is exact!
The difference from Time.is was +0.001 seconds (±0.070 seconds).
11:26:31"
Why Liverpool, when it's about 40 miles from Rochdale (and,
incidentally, not in the direction I live)?

It uses geolocation of your IP address. Geolocation is hit and miss at the
best of times. I’m geolocated to the headquarters of my niche ISP. When I
was on Virgin Media I seemed to move around the country as VM moved and
traded blocks of IP addresses.

That could be the reason.

Post by Tweed
https://www.geolocation.com/en_us amongst many similar sites will return
where “they” think you are.

I have "location" turned off in my browser's settings, and it's not
going back on, so that site doesn't work.

[Tweed]

Post by Jeff Layman

Post by Tweed

Post by Jeff Layman

Post by Tweed

Post by Andy Burns

Post by John Williamson

Post by Andy Burns
Sending the date/time/timezone is optional for the network, and it's
allowed to have an accuracy in the order of minutes, but I generally
find it's accurate when compared to GPS/MSF master clocks.

I got the impression that each data packet contained an origination and
time code to make assembly easier when packets are received out of order
due to factors such as base station switching?

That's a different "network clock" not an absolute time as in UTC+/-TZ
The delta between base-station clocks is used when moving from cell-to-cell.

https://time.is/
Time.is is synchronized with an atomic clock - the most accurate time
source in the world. The displayed time will normally have a precision of
0.02-0.10 seconds. The precision depends on your internet connection and
how busy your computer is.
It also measures the delta between what it thinks the time is and your
device’s system time.
My iPhone: 0.105 seconds, my iPad 0.126 seconds.

How does it know where you are? I don't use my home location at any
time, and often applications assume I'm in Rochdale (as my ISP is Zen,
who are based in Rochdale). I'm actually about 250 miles away.
"Your time is exact!
The difference from Time.is was +0.001 seconds (±0.070 seconds).
11:26:31"
Why Liverpool, when it's about 40 miles from Rochdale (and,
incidentally, not in the direction I live)?

It uses geolocation of your IP address. Geolocation is hit and miss at the
best of times. I’m geolocated to the headquarters of my niche ISP. When I
was on Virgin Media I seemed to move around the country as VM moved and
traded blocks of IP addresses.

That could be the reason.

Post by Tweed
https://www.geolocation.com/en_us amongst many similar sites will return
where “they” think you are.

I have "location" turned off in my browser's settings, and it's not
going back on, so that site doesn't work.

You can decline the invitation to turn on browser location. The site still
works.

[Jeff Layman]

Post by Tweed

Post by Jeff Layman

Post by Tweed

Post by Jeff Layman

Post by Tweed

Post by Andy Burns

Post by John Williamson

Post by Andy Burns
Sending the date/time/timezone is optional for the network, and it's
allowed to have an accuracy in the order of minutes, but I generally
find it's accurate when compared to GPS/MSF master clocks.

I got the impression that each data packet contained an origination and
time code to make assembly easier when packets are received out of order
due to factors such as base station switching?

That's a different "network clock" not an absolute time as in UTC+/-TZ
The delta between base-station clocks is used when moving from cell-to-cell.

https://time.is/
Time.is is synchronized with an atomic clock - the most accurate time
source in the world. The displayed time will normally have a precision of
0.02-0.10 seconds. The precision depends on your internet connection and
how busy your computer is.
It also measures the delta between what it thinks the time is and your
device’s system time.
My iPhone: 0.105 seconds, my iPad 0.126 seconds.

How does it know where you are? I don't use my home location at any
time, and often applications assume I'm in Rochdale (as my ISP is Zen,
who are based in Rochdale). I'm actually about 250 miles away.
"Your time is exact!
The difference from Time.is was +0.001 seconds (±0.070 seconds).
11:26:31"
Why Liverpool, when it's about 40 miles from Rochdale (and,
incidentally, not in the direction I live)?

It uses geolocation of your IP address. Geolocation is hit and miss at the
best of times. I’m geolocated to the headquarters of my niche ISP. When I
was on Virgin Media I seemed to move around the country as VM moved and
traded blocks of IP addresses.

That could be the reason.

Post by Tweed
https://www.geolocation.com/en_us amongst many similar sites will return
where “they” think you are.

I have "location" turned off in my browser's settings, and it's not
going back on, so that site doesn't work.

You can decline the invitation to turn on browser location. The site still
works.

I get a pop-up box if I try:

"www.geolocation.com

User has denied the request for sharing location. Please enable location
sharing in web browser."

What I find odd is that <https://www.iplocation.net/myip> shows my IP
address, and gives its location as Northampton. If that site can detect
it, why can't <https://www.geolocation.com/en_us>?

Out of interest I fed it my IP address as detected by
<https://www.iplocation.net/myip>. It reported it as being at Little
Biencow near Penrith!

[Andy Burns]

Post by J. P. Gilliver

Post by Andy Burns
I think the News24 approach, i.e. having some pip-like noises in the
jingle that plays up to the start of the program roughly on the hour,
works well enough ...

I'm pretty sure the news24 countdown - even allowing for the varying
transmission delays - is only a jingle, not actually started so that it
reaches zero on the hour anywhere.

I'm not saying anything part of the News24 jingle is synchronised, it
just serves as a sound you can listen-out for when it's on in the
background, becauseit has some elements which are reminiscent of pips ...

[J. P. Gilliver]

Post by Brian Gaff
Yes well they were stopped some time back and I think are generated by the

They were and have not stopped. I think what you are thinking of is that
they no longer - from sometime in the 1990s I think, I remember
listening to the last ones that did, with slight sadness - come from the
Greenwich observatory at Herstmonceux; they, or at least the time
reference, come from the CET in Europe (for practical purposes Germany).

Post by Brian Gaff
bbc themselves with a countdown up to them to aid program producers. So I

The actual pips sound is BBC-generated and had been for a long time (the
signal from Herstmonceux was a tone with interruptions rather than
silence with tones, so that it could easily be told whether the line had
gone down). Any countdown to aid producers wouldn't have to have much
time precision so could be from any good clock.

Post by Brian Gaff
wonder if there was some way that the delay could be accounted for on the
different media delivery systems. I'd imagine if a sat were involved it
would be the longest delay. However D
aB and internet can be worse sometimes but it seems to vary.
Brian

Yes, if you want something accurate to even a second or so, don't use
DAB or FreeView, use FM. Or, as many have said, a smartphone _as long as
it has GPS_ (which _relies_ on a very precise time reference to work).

[J. P. Gilliver]

[]
Sorry, I replied to that before realising it was an earlier post that
had for some reason reappeared in my feed.

[Tweed]

Post by J. P. Gilliver

Post by Brian Gaff
Yes well they were stopped some time back and I think are generated by the

They were and have not stopped. I think what you are thinking of is that
they no longer - from sometime in the 1990s I think, I remember
listening to the last ones that did, with slight sadness - come from the
Greenwich observatory at Herstmonceux; they, or at least the time
reference, come from the CET in Europe (for practical purposes Germany).

Post by Brian Gaff
bbc themselves with a countdown up to them to aid program producers. So I

The actual pips sound is BBC-generated and had been for a long time (the
signal from Herstmonceux was a tone with interruptions rather than
silence with tones, so that it could easily be told whether the line had
gone down). Any countdown to aid producers wouldn't have to have much
time precision so could be from any good clock.

Post by Brian Gaff
wonder if there was some way that the delay could be accounted for on the
different media delivery systems. I'd imagine if a sat were involved it
would be the longest delay. However D
aB and internet can be worse sometimes but it seems to vary.
Brian

Yes, if you want something accurate to even a second or so, don't use
DAB or FreeView, use FM. Or, as many have said, a smartphone _as long as
it has GPS_ (which _relies_ on a very precise time reference to work).

The pips have been derived from GPS for quite a while. When GPS was in its
early days I visited the pips generation installation. It had three GPS
receivers (for redundancy) and an MSF receiver. The latter was there only
as a last resort in case of GPS system failure. This was in the days when
MSF came from Rugby.

[Clive Page]

Post by Brian Gaff
Yes well they were stopped some time back and I think are generated by the
bbc themselves with a countdown up to them to aid program producers. So I
wonder if there was some way that the delay could be accounted for on the
different media delivery systems. I'd imagine if a sat were involved it
would be the longest delay. However D
aB and internet can be worse sometimes but it seems to vary.
Brian

The programme which prompted this thread was, I thought, not really very good, and almost totally lacking in technical detail. Like nearly all BBC programmes it was, I guess, produced by graduates in "media studies" or something like that.

About the only detail that was new to me was the claim than at midnight on a date when a leap second was introduced there would be 7 pips. But I don't know of any BBC programme that uses pips at midnight - it always seems to be the chimes of Big Ben.

There was nothing about this in the programme, but I'm vaguely remember hearing many years ago that the BBC used to adjust the timing of the pips so that a typical listener in the home counties, say 50 km from a London area transmitter like Wrotham, would get the most accurate signal. Anyone living nearer the transmitter than that would get a time signal a fraction of a millisecond early, those in more distant parts of the UK would necessarily get it a few milliseconds late, but there really wasn't much they could do about that at reasonable cost. Does anyone else remember that or is my memory playing tricks?

[Mark Carver]

Post by Clive Page

Post by Brian Gaff
Yes well they were stopped some time back and I think are generated by the
bbc themselves with a countdown up to them to aid program producers. So I
wonder if there was some way that the delay could be accounted for on the
different media delivery systems. I'd imagine if a sat were involved it
would be the longest delay. However D
aB and internet can be worse sometimes but it seems to vary.
  Brian

The programme which prompted this thread was, I thought, not really very
good, and almost totally lacking in technical detail.   Like nearly all
BBC programmes it was, I guess, produced by graduates in "media studies"
or something like that.
About the only detail that was new to me was the claim than at midnight
on a date when a leap second was introduced there would be 7 pips.   But
I don't know of any BBC programme that uses pips at midnight - it always
seems to be the chimes of Big Ben.
There was nothing about this in the programme, but I'm vaguely remember
hearing many years ago that the BBC used to adjust the timing of the
pips so that a typical listener in the home counties, say 50 km from a
London area transmitter like Wrotham, would get the most accurate
signal.  Anyone living nearer the transmitter than that would get a time
signal a fraction of a millisecond early, those in more distant parts of
the UK would necessarily get it a few milliseconds late, but there
really wasn't much they could do about that at reasonable cost.   Does
anyone else remember that or is my memory playing tricks?

A far more significant factor, is how far away you are from the radio's
loudspeaker !

[tony sayer]

Post by Mark Carver

Post by Clive Page

Post by Brian Gaff
Yes well they were stopped some time back and I think are generated by the
bbc themselves with a countdown up to them to aid program producers. So I
wonder if there was some way that the delay could be accounted for on the
different media delivery systems. I'd imagine if a sat were involved it
would be the longest delay. However D
aB and internet can be worse sometimes but it seems to vary.
  Brian

The programme which prompted this thread was, I thought, not really very
good, and almost totally lacking in technical detail.   Like nearly all
BBC programmes it was, I guess, produced by graduates in "media studies"
or something like that.
About the only detail that was new to me was the claim than at midnight
on a date when a leap second was introduced there would be 7 pips.   But
I don't know of any BBC programme that uses pips at midnight - it always
seems to be the chimes of Big Ben.
There was nothing about this in the programme, but I'm vaguely remember
hearing many years ago that the BBC used to adjust the timing of the
pips so that a typical listener in the home counties, say 50 km from a
London area transmitter like Wrotham, would get the most accurate
signal.  Anyone living nearer the transmitter than that would get a time
signal a fraction of a millisecond early, those in more distant parts of
the UK would necessarily get it a few milliseconds late, but there
really wasn't much they could do about that at reasonable cost.   Does
anyone else remember that or is my memory playing tricks?

A far more significant factor, is how far away you are from the radio's
loudspeaker !

A far more important factor is how many females there are there who have
clocks from five to ten minutes fast, or slow even, known that!..

If you want it "that" accurate Rubidium standards are on fleabay from
time to time;!..

[Tweed]

Post by tony sayer

Post by Mark Carver

Post by Clive Page

Post by Brian Gaff
Yes well they were stopped some time back and I think are generated by the
bbc themselves with a countdown up to them to aid program producers. So I
wonder if there was some way that the delay could be accounted for on the
different media delivery systems. I'd imagine if a sat were involved it
would be the longest delay. However D
aB and internet can be worse sometimes but it seems to vary.
  Brian

The programme which prompted this thread was, I thought, not really very
good, and almost totally lacking in technical detail.   Like nearly all
BBC programmes it was, I guess, produced by graduates in "media studies"
or something like that.
About the only detail that was new to me was the claim than at midnight
on a date when a leap second was introduced there would be 7 pips.   But
I don't know of any BBC programme that uses pips at midnight - it always
seems to be the chimes of Big Ben.
There was nothing about this in the programme, but I'm vaguely remember
hearing many years ago that the BBC used to adjust the timing of the
pips so that a typical listener in the home counties, say 50 km from a
London area transmitter like Wrotham, would get the most accurate
signal.  Anyone living nearer the transmitter than that would get a time
signal a fraction of a millisecond early, those in more distant parts of
the UK would necessarily get it a few milliseconds late, but there
really wasn't much they could do about that at reasonable cost.   Does
anyone else remember that or is my memory playing tricks?

A far more significant factor, is how far away you are from the radio's
loudspeaker !

A far more important factor is how many females there are there who have
clocks from five to ten minutes fast, or slow even, known that!..
If you want it "that" accurate Rubidium standards are on fleabay from
time to time;!..

Rubidium standards don’t tell the time.

[tony sayer]

In article <urpch5$dk50$***@dont-email.me>, Tweed <***@gmail.com>
scribeth thus

Post by Tweed

Post by tony sayer

Post by Mark Carver

Post by Clive Page

Post by Brian Gaff
Yes well they were stopped some time back and I think are generated by the
bbc themselves with a countdown up to them to aid program producers. So I
wonder if there was some way that the delay could be accounted for on the
different media delivery systems. I'd imagine if a sat were involved it
would be the longest delay. However D
aB and internet can be worse sometimes but it seems to vary.
  Brian

The programme which prompted this thread was, I thought, not really very
good, and almost totally lacking in technical detail.   Like nearly all
BBC programmes it was, I guess, produced by graduates in "media studies"
or something like that.
About the only detail that was new to me was the claim than at midnight
on a date when a leap second was introduced there would be 7 pips.   But
I don't know of any BBC programme that uses pips at midnight - it always
seems to be the chimes of Big Ben.
There was nothing about this in the programme, but I'm vaguely remember
hearing many years ago that the BBC used to adjust the timing of the
pips so that a typical listener in the home counties, say 50 km from a
London area transmitter like Wrotham, would get the most accurate
signal.  Anyone living nearer the transmitter than that would get a time
signal a fraction of a millisecond early, those in more distant parts of
the UK would necessarily get it a few milliseconds late, but there
really wasn't much they could do about that at reasonable cost.   Does
anyone else remember that or is my memory playing tricks?

A far more significant factor, is how far away you are from the radio's
loudspeaker !

A far more important factor is how many females there are there who have
clocks from five to ten minutes fast, or slow even, known that!..
If you want it "that" accurate Rubidium standards are on fleabay from
time to time;!..

Rubidium standards don’t tell the time.

No course not my mistake! accurate frequency is more important to me !
For which i have a Leo Bodnar GPS frequency standard works very well and
you can output whatever frequency you want from it:)..


https://www.leobodnar.com/shop/index.php?main_page=index&cPath=107

[Woody]

Post by tony sayer
scribeth thus

Post by Tweed

Post by tony sayer

Post by Mark Carver

Post by Clive Page

Post by Brian Gaff
Yes well they were stopped some time back and I think are generated by the
bbc themselves with a countdown up to them to aid program producers. So I
wonder if there was some way that the delay could be accounted for on the
different media delivery systems. I'd imagine if a sat were involved it
would be the longest delay. However D
aB and internet can be worse sometimes but it seems to vary.
  Brian

The programme which prompted this thread was, I thought, not really very
good, and almost totally lacking in technical detail.   Like nearly all
BBC programmes it was, I guess, produced by graduates in "media studies"
or something like that.
About the only detail that was new to me was the claim than at midnight
on a date when a leap second was introduced there would be 7 pips.   But
I don't know of any BBC programme that uses pips at midnight - it always
seems to be the chimes of Big Ben.
There was nothing about this in the programme, but I'm vaguely remember
hearing many years ago that the BBC used to adjust the timing of the
pips so that a typical listener in the home counties, say 50 km from a
London area transmitter like Wrotham, would get the most accurate
signal.  Anyone living nearer the transmitter than that would get a time
signal a fraction of a millisecond early, those in more distant parts of
the UK would necessarily get it a few milliseconds late, but there
really wasn't much they could do about that at reasonable cost.   Does
anyone else remember that or is my memory playing tricks?

A far more significant factor, is how far away you are from the radio's
loudspeaker !

A far more important factor is how many females there are there who have
clocks from five to ten minutes fast, or slow even, known that!..
If you want it "that" accurate Rubidium standards are on fleabay from
time to time;!..

Rubidium standards don’t tell the time.

No course not my mistake! accurate frequency is more important to me !
For which i have a Leo Bodnar GPS frequency standard works very well and
you can output whatever frequency you want from it:)..
https://www.leobodnar.com/shop/index.php?main_page=index&cPath=107

+1 - a superb piece of kit and good value for money (well it was at £98
when I got mine!)

[Andy Burns]

Post by tony sayer
i have a Leo Bodnar GPS frequency standard works very well and
you can output whatever frequency you want from it:)..
https://www.leobodnar.com/shop/index.php?main_page=index&cPath=107

I recognise where standard clocks like 32.768 kHz or 3.579545 MHz come
from, but what is significant about 49.152 MHz ?

[JMB99]

Post by tony sayer
A far more important factor is how many females there are there who have
clocks from five to ten minutes fast, or slow even, known that!..

I have known many men that do the same.

[Mark Carver]

Post by tony sayer

Post by Mark Carver

Post by Clive Page

Post by Brian Gaff
Yes well they were stopped some time back and I think are generated by the
bbc themselves with a countdown up to them to aid program producers. So I
wonder if there was some way that the delay could be accounted for on the
different media delivery systems. I'd imagine if a sat were involved it
would be the longest delay. However D
aB and internet can be worse sometimes but it seems to vary.
  Brian

The programme which prompted this thread was, I thought, not really very
good, and almost totally lacking in technical detail.   Like nearly all
BBC programmes it was, I guess, produced by graduates in "media studies"
or something like that.
About the only detail that was new to me was the claim than at midnight
on a date when a leap second was introduced there would be 7 pips.   But
I don't know of any BBC programme that uses pips at midnight - it always
seems to be the chimes of Big Ben.
There was nothing about this in the programme, but I'm vaguely remember
hearing many years ago that the BBC used to adjust the timing of the
pips so that a typical listener in the home counties, say 50 km from a
London area transmitter like Wrotham, would get the most accurate
signal.  Anyone living nearer the transmitter than that would get a time
signal a fraction of a millisecond early, those in more distant parts of
the UK would necessarily get it a few milliseconds late, but there
really wasn't much they could do about that at reasonable cost.   Does
anyone else remember that or is my memory playing tricks?

A far more significant factor, is how far away you are from the radio's
loudspeaker !

A far more important factor is how many females there are there who have
clocks from five to ten minutes fast, or slow even, known that!..

The clock in Mrs C's car gains about 60 seconds a month, it gets reset
every March and October when I do the GMT/BST thing, but she moans on
the morning after that the clock isn't fast any more, and she's confused !

The clock is part of the integrated 'audio, bluetooth etc' unit, WTF it
can't just take a sniff of the DAB or FM clock data I don't know !

My car, uses GPS sniffs to keep the clock spot on, except I still need
to manually adjust the 'hour' for GMT/BST.

[Mike Headon]

Post by tony sayer

Post by Mark Carver

Post by Clive Page

Post by Brian Gaff
Yes well they were stopped some time back and I think are generated by the
bbc themselves with a countdown up to them to aid program producers. So I
wonder if there was some way that the delay could be accounted for on the
different media delivery systems. I'd imagine if a sat were involved it
would be the longest delay. However D
aB and internet can be worse sometimes but it seems to vary.
  Brian

The programme which prompted this thread was, I thought, not really very
good, and almost totally lacking in technical detail.   Like nearly all
BBC programmes it was, I guess, produced by graduates in "media studies"
or something like that.
About the only detail that was new to me was the claim than at midnight
on a date when a leap second was introduced there would be 7 pips.   But
I don't know of any BBC programme that uses pips at midnight - it always
seems to be the chimes of Big Ben.
There was nothing about this in the programme, but I'm vaguely remember
hearing many years ago that the BBC used to adjust the timing of the
pips so that a typical listener in the home counties, say 50 km from a
London area transmitter like Wrotham, would get the most accurate
signal.  Anyone living nearer the transmitter than that would get a time
signal a fraction of a millisecond early, those in more distant parts of
the UK would necessarily get it a few milliseconds late, but there
really wasn't much they could do about that at reasonable cost.   Does
anyone else remember that or is my memory playing tricks?

A far more significant factor, is how far away you are from the radio's
loudspeaker !

A far more important factor is how many females there are there who have
clocks from five to ten minutes fast, or slow even, known that!..
If you want it "that" accurate Rubidium standards are on fleabay from
time to time;!..

They used to say that radio listeners in Australia heard the chime of
Big Ben before someone outdoors in Lambeth!

[John Williamson]

Post by Mike Headon

Post by tony sayer
A far more important factor is how many females there are there who have
clocks from five to ten minutes fast, or slow even, known that!..
If you want it "that" accurate Rubidium standards are on fleabay from
time to time;!..

They used to say that radio listeners in Australia heard the chime of
Big Ben before someone outdoors in Lambeth!

Marginal. If you stand on the South Bank next to Westminster Bridge, the
speed of sound delay is about 750 milliseconds.

Transmission delay to and from geostationary orbit is about half a
second plus landline delay at each end, not forgetting that at least two
satellites are involved due to imitations of coverage. Using landline
all the way is even slower. You may do slightly better using the
Starlink constellation, which are all in very low orbits and can link
with each other, with a ping time to a ground station of about 50 ms.

[NY]

Post by John Williamson

Post by Mike Headon
They used to say that radio listeners in Australia heard the chime of
Big Ben before someone outdoors in Lambeth!

Marginal. If you stand on the South Bank next to Westminster Bridge, the
speed of sound delay is about 750 milliseconds.
Transmission delay to and from geostationary orbit is about half a
second plus landline delay at each end, not forgetting that at least two
satellites are involved due to imitations of coverage. Using landline
all the way is even slower. You may do slightly better using the
Starlink constellation, which are all in very low orbits and can link
with each other, with a ping time to a ground station of about 50 ms.

Vicki Pipe (of Geoff Marshall and Vicki Pipe "All the Stations" fame, in
which they travelled to every railway station in the UK) did a test in
which she stood on Westminster Bridge with an FM (not digital) radio
that was tuned to Radio 4. When the Big Ben chimes preceded the 6 PM
news, you could hear the first bong through the radio noticeably before
the sound of it reached the camera's microphone through the air. I
measured the time difference and concluded that she was about 70 metres
away.

[JMB99]

Post by Clive Page
There was nothing about this in the programme, but I'm vaguely remember
hearing many years ago that the BBC used to adjust the timing of the
pips so that a typical listener in the home counties, say 50 km from a
London area transmitter like Wrotham, would get the most accurate
signal.  Anyone living nearer the transmitter than that would get a time
signal a fraction of a millisecond early, those in more distant parts of
the UK would necessarily get it a few milliseconds late, but there
really wasn't much they could do about that at reasonable cost.   Does
anyone else remember that or is my memory playing tricks?

How many set their watch to an accuracy of 1 millisecond?

I suspect that if you stopped some people in the street, their watches
would be many minutes out.

[J. P. Gilliver]

Post by JMB99

Post by Clive Page
There was nothing about this in the programme, but I'm vaguely
remember hearing many years ago that the BBC used to adjust the
timing of the pips so that a typical listener in the home counties,
say 50 km from a London area transmitter like Wrotham, would get the
most accurate signal.  Anyone living nearer the transmitter than that
would get a time signal a fraction of a millisecond early, those in
more distant parts of the UK would necessarily get it a few
milliseconds late, but there really wasn't much they could do about
that at reasonable cost.   Does anyone else remember that or is my
memory playing tricks?

How many set their watch to an accuracy of 1 millisecond?
I suspect that if you stopped some people in the street, their watches
would be many minutes out.

I'd defy anyone to be _able_ to set it to closer than 100, more like 500
(-:

As another has said, distance from speaker in the room probably gives
more variation!

[JMB99]

Post by J. P. Gilliver
I'd defy anyone to be _able_ to set it to closer than 100, more like 500
As another has said, distance from speaker in the room probably gives
more variation!

And most mobile only display hours and minutes.

Sure there are Apps to display seconds but most do not have them in
their phone.

One of my PC has a utility to lock to a German standard because I use
the PC for tracking aircraft. I don't really need it but would if I set
up for Multilateration which uses the time difference between different
receiving sites to calculate the position of the aircraft.