Redifusion and those while boxes

[Anorak]

Some time ago probably early 80's we had a small while box on the window
sill which you use to change the channel with, It was a small click step
control with channel nos labelled A, B,C etc. One channel oddly gave BBC
London I think or was it ITV London but the sound was from a radio station
at certain times of the day, It was a very primiative form of cable tv from
Redifusion but was this local or national ?? Anyone else had this setup ?

[David Lees]

Post by Anorak
Some time ago probably early 80's we had a small while box on the window
sill which you use to change the channel with, It was a small click step
control with channel nos labelled A, B,C etc. One channel oddly gave BBC
London I think or was it ITV London but the sound was from a radio station
at certain times of the day, It was a very primiative form of cable tv
from Redifusion but was this local or national ?? Anyone else had this
setup ?

My parents had something like this sometime in the 80's. This was in
Brighton and I think we got ITV London.

[Gareth Rowlands]

Post by David Lees
My parents had something like this sometime in the 80's. This was in
Brighton and I think we got ITV London.

We used to stay in the Regency Tavern in Brighton during the 1980's,
and some of the guest rooms there had these cable TV points fitted.

They are probably still there ........

Cheers !

Gareth

[Ivan]

Post by Anorak
Some time ago probably early 80's we had a small while box on the window
sill which you use to change the channel with, It was a small click step
control with channel nos labelled A, B,C etc. One channel oddly gave BBC
London I think or was it ITV London but the sound was from a radio station
at certain times of the day, It was a very primiative form of cable tv from
Redifusion but was this local or national ?? Anyone else had this setup ?

The old Rediffusion HF cable system was national, and ran from the late
1950s up until the mid-1980s when Granada took them over, although IIRC
Robert Maxwell took over some of the system to distribute a limited pay TV
service.

[w***@aol.com]

I've got one of those switches in my 'museum'.

Bill

[Mike the Unshavable]

Post by w***@aol.com
I've got one of those switches in my 'museum'.
Bill

My son's flat still has one on the wall! (All the cables behind it have
been snipped though)

[Graham]

Post by Ivan

Post by Anorak
Some time ago probably early 80's we had a small while box on the window
sill which you use to change the channel with, It was a small click step
control with channel nos labelled A, B,C etc. One channel oddly gave BBC
London I think or was it ITV London but the sound was from a radio station
at certain times of the day, It was a very primiative form of cable tv

from

Post by Anorak
Redifusion but was this local or national ?? Anyone else had this setup ?

The old Rediffusion HF cable system was national, and ran from the late
1950s up until the mid-1980s when Granada took them over, although IIRC
Robert Maxwell took over some of the system to distribute a limited pay TV
service.

There was a similar network in the Quay Street Granada TV studios,
(MDS Monitor Distribution System), but it was Top Rank not Rediffusion.

The Rediffusion Doric TV sets had to be re-aligned to the higher vision
carrier frequency.
The system was eventually replaced with a UHF distribution system.

Does anyone remember the TV advert for the 'Rediffusion Wire'?
It featured a bird a bit like the Post Office 'Buzby', but earlier.

[Ivan]

Post by Anorak

Post by Ivan

Post by Anorak
Some time ago probably early 80's we had a small while box on the window
sill which you use to change the channel with, It was a small click step
control with channel nos labelled A, B,C etc. One channel oddly gave BBC
London I think or was it ITV London but the sound was from a radio

station

Post by Ivan

Post by Anorak
at certain times of the day, It was a very primiative form of cable tv

from

Post by Anorak
Redifusion but was this local or national ?? Anyone else had this

setup

Post by Anorak
?

Post by Ivan
The old Rediffusion HF cable system was national, and ran from the late
1950s up until the mid-1980s when Granada took them over, although IIRC
Robert Maxwell took over some of the system to distribute a limited pay TV
service.

There was a similar network in the Quay Street Granada TV studios,
(MDS Monitor Distribution System), but it was Top Rank not Rediffusion.
The Rediffusion Doric TV sets had to be re-aligned to the higher vision
carrier frequency.
The system was eventually replaced with a UHF distribution system.
Does anyone remember the TV advert for the 'Rediffusion Wire'?
It featured a bird a bit like the Post Office 'Buzby', but earlier.

Rediffusion Reggie :0)

Post by Anorak
--
Graham.
%Profound_observation%

[Rob]

Does anyone remember the TV advert for the 'Rediffusion Wire'?
It featured a bird a bit like the Post Office 'Buzby', but earlier.
***********************************************

And how about the other part of the advert which showed a smiling(!) service
controller with a clock in the background showing 21:40 hrs. The voice over
said "service 7 days a week until 10 p.m."

Yes, I was the poor s*d who had to take the call, drive 5 miles, fix the
fault and finish before 10 p.m.!
Oh the pleasures of working for Rediffusion(SE)Ltd. ;-)

[Graham]

Post by Graham
Does anyone remember the TV advert for the 'Rediffusion Wire'?
It featured a bird a bit like the Post Office 'Buzby', but earlier.
***********************************************
And how about the other part of the advert which showed a smiling(!) service
controller with a clock in the background showing 21:40 hrs. The voice over
said "service 7 days a week until 10 p.m."
Yes, I was the poor s*d who had to take the call, drive 5 miles, fix the
fault and finish before 10 p.m.!
Oh the pleasures of working for Rediffusion(SE)Ltd. ;-)
No I can't say I remember that.

Ivan says the bird was called Reggie, I don't remember myself.

As Google has no recollection of this advert in its archive I will give it
my best shot.
I would have seen it in the Granada region
Its bound to be seriously floored so please correct me.

[Reggie on aerial]
"High up here Rediffusion have an aerial"

[Reggie flies to the wire]
"Its connected to this wire; The Rediffusion Wire"
(something like) "Beings you the clearest possible pictures and sound right
into your home"

(that line was reproduced with severe bass cut, the voice had a telephonic
quality that the public in those days perhaps confused with hi-fi(?))

The ad ended with something like
"See if you can get on the Rediffusion Wire today.

[Ivan]

Post by Ivan

Post by Graham
Does anyone remember the TV advert for the 'Rediffusion Wire'?
It featured a bird a bit like the Post Office 'Buzby', but earlier.
***********************************************
And how about the other part of the advert which showed a smiling(!)

service

Post by Graham
controller with a clock in the background showing 21:40 hrs. The voice

over

Post by Graham
said "service 7 days a week until 10 p.m."
Yes, I was the poor s*d who had to take the call, drive 5 miles, fix the
fault and finish before 10 p.m.!
Oh the pleasures of working for Rediffusion(SE)Ltd. ;-)
No I can't say I remember that.

Ivan says the bird was called Reggie, I don't remember myself.
As Google has no recollection of this advert in its archive I will give it
my best shot.
I would have seen it in the Granada region
Its bound to be seriously floored so please correct me.
[Reggie on aerial]
"High up here Rediffusion have an aerial"
[Reggie flies to the wire]
"Its connected to this wire; The Rediffusion Wire"
(something like) "Beings you the clearest possible pictures and sound right
into your home"
(that line was reproduced with severe bass cut, the voice had a telephonic
quality that the public in those days perhaps confused with hi-fi(?))
The ad ended with something like
"See if you can get on the Rediffusion Wire today.

Like Rob I worked for the TV distribution (none broadcast side) of
Rediffusion (SW) with a couple of breaks from the late 1950s until the
mid-1980s. It was a brilliant company to work for with many happy memories,
back in the halcyon years when television really was 'a licence to print
money'.

Many a happy drinking evenings spent around the Clifton area of Bristol with
the lads from the old TWW studios. IMO things are now a pale shadow of what
they used to be, in both the broadcast and domestic TV front.

Post by Ivan
--
Graham.
%Profound_observation%

[Alan S.]

Post by Ivan

Post by Anorak
Some time ago probably early 80's we had a small while box on the
window sill which you use to change the channel with, It was a small
click step control with channel nos labelled A, B,C etc. One channel
oddly gave BBC London I think or was it ITV London but the sound was
from a radio station at certain times of the day, It was a very
primiative form of cable tv

from

Post by Anorak
Redifusion but was this local or national ?? Anyone else had this setup ?

The old Rediffusion HF cable system was national, and ran from the
late 1950s up until the mid-1980s when Granada took them over,
although IIRC Robert Maxwell took over some of the system to
distribute a limited pay TV service.

I seem to remember similar boxes in various viewing rooms/areas of BBC
TV Centre. Charles?

Alan S.

[Ashley Booth]

Post by Ivan

Post by Anorak
Some time ago probably early 80's we had a small while box on the
window sill which you use to change the channel with, It was a

small >> click step control with channel nos labelled A, B,C etc. One
channel >> oddly gave BBC London I think or was it ITV London but the
sound was >> from a radio station at certain times of the day, It was
a very >> primiative form of cable tv

Post by Ivan
from

Post by Anorak
Redifusion but was this local or national ?? Anyone else had this setup ?

The old Rediffusion HF cable system was national, and ran from the
late 1950s up until the mid-1980s when Granada took them over,
although IIRC Robert Maxwell took over some of the system to
distribute a limited pay TV service.

I seem to remember similar boxes in various viewing rooms/areas of
BBC TV Centre. Charles?
Alan S.

And in the old ITN building in Wells St.

[charles]

Post by Alan S.
I seem to remember similar boxes in various viewing rooms/areas of BBC
TV Centre. Charles?

back from holiday and can answer.

Yes, there was a Rediffusion hf system in tv centre for office and
conference room viewing. ISTR it used a 10MHz (ish) carrier for the vision;
audio was at base band. The original audio amps were replaced by Quads. It
was made to handle both 405 & 625 and could at a pinch - on some receivers-
work at 525/60 as well.

[Clive]

Post by Anorak
Some time ago probably early 80's we had a small while box on the window
sill which you use to change the channel with, It was a small click step
control with channel nos labelled A, B,C etc. One channel oddly gave BBC
London I think or was it ITV London but the sound was from a radio station
at certain times of the day, It was a very primiative form of cable tv from
Redifusion but was this local or national ?? Anyone else had this setup ?

I had one of those in the early 90's all painted up in the Window sill of my
rented house in Pontypridd. After de-gunking it and wiring it up I found
that it was still 'live' and supplied all the channels plus Sky and Bravo. I
still haven't a clue who was supplying the signal, I certainly never saw any
adverts or contacts for cable TV in the area.

It was a real god-send, TV reception in the South Wales valleys was abysmal,
especially if you were situated on the wrong side of the Valley.

//Clive.

[Doctor D]

Post by Clive
I had one of those in the early 90's all painted up in the Window sill of my
rented house in Pontypridd. After de-gunking it and wiring it up I found
that it was still 'live' and supplied all the channels plus Sky and Bravo. I
still haven't a clue who was supplying the signal, I certainly never saw any
adverts or contacts for cable TV in the area.
It was a real god-send, TV reception in the South Wales valleys was abysmal,
especially if you were situated on the wrong side of the Valley.

They were practically compulsory in the South Wales valley towns from the
advent of UHF through to the mid eighties when Redifusion (or it may have
been Granada after the takeover) fitted aerials on the roof tops of
individual houses, and installed conventional TV receivers. It may also have
been linked to the introduction of VCR's (supposition) so that customers
could record one channel whilst watching another, and use the timer of the
VCR to change channels.

I recall friends of my parents having this system in Heol Gerrig, Merthyr
Tydfil. I was fascinated by the fact that you walked over to the window sill
to change channel on the TV. In their house this was quite remote from the
TV itself! When lots of relays stations began springing up in the valleys in
the late seventies the system started to lose its attraction.

I believe their system provided BBC1 West and BBC1 Wales, HTV Wales, HTV
West and ATV (Central.) Prior to the launch of S4C in 1982 both HTV Wales
and BBC1 Wales transmitted Welsh language programming in amongst the
national English language services. For non Welsh speakers being able to
select an English language channel was a godsend.

My grandparents had a Redifusion cable service in Brecon, but it used a
traditional style TV with presets on the front. The whole system was VHF,
and if you didn't rent a VHF receiver from Redifusion they would provide you
with a mains powered VHF to UHF converter to connect in line from their
socket to your receiver. The Brecon system only provided local Welsh TV from
the Brecon relay, and Midlands TV from an aerial mounted on a hill called
the Crug above the town. The system was called "The pipe" in local speak -
from piped TV I suppose. The cables hung from house to house and ran along
the ground in places, as the system aged it was not well maintained
especially as more people erected their own aerials and income to the system
dropped.

http://tx.mb21.co.uk/gallery/ebbw-vale.asp gives a glimpse of one of the
head ends for these systems - it's the very last picture in the set.

[Clive]

Post by Doctor D
They were practically compulsory in the South Wales valley towns from the
advent of UHF through to the mid eighties when Redifusion (or it may have
been Granada after the takeover) fitted aerials on the roof tops of
individual houses, and installed conventional TV receivers. It may also have
been linked to the introduction of VCR's (supposition) so that customers
could record one channel whilst watching another, and use the timer of the
VCR to change channels.

Thanks, very interesting. As you say, TV reception was (and I guess still
is) very poor in the Welsh Valleys. In the Pontypridd area there was one
relay on one side of the valley and if you were on the same side of the
valley (Rhydfellin ?) then reception could only be got from the reflected
signal from the other side of the Valley. Same problems if you lived deep in
the valley, the signal was just not there. Living there as a student I got a
visit from the 'Tv Licensing' people (there was a whole micro industry of
inspectors in this student town). Having viewed the quality of picture I
could receive with the loop aerial on top of my B&W TV he let me off from
having a license claiming the picture was not of sufficiently high standard.
This was before I had discovered the Rediffusion box.

//Clive.

[charles]

Post by Doctor D
They were practically compulsory in the South Wales valley towns from the
advent of UHF through to the mid eighties when Redifusion (or it may have
been Granada after the takeover) fitted aerials on the roof tops of
individual houses, and installed conventional TV receivers. It may also
have been linked to the introduction of VCR's (supposition) so that
customers could record one channel whilst watching another, and use the
timer of the VCR to change channels.

The fitting of uhf aerials was so that the cable could be released for
Pay-per-view films.

[v***@boscombe.org]

The system was based on "head ends" in the various towns and cities
that had the service. In the '80s distribution was normally BBC1,
BBC2, The Local ITV, C4, an out of area ITV and various radio stations,
including R2, R4 and the BBC local station.

In areas where the system was established it lasted well on into the
'80s, tied of course to television set rentals. In the late 80's
Maxwell bought about a dozen systems out and substituted 5 or 6
elementary pay TV channels, in the process converting all the rental
customers to conventional off-air.

In the 'late 60s some of the Redifusion networks were commercially
pro-active in capturing services not available off-air. The
Southampton system had an OTT array of yagis designed to get UHF
Crystal Palace off-air, in order to offer their subscribers BBC2 prior
to BBC2 Rowridge becoming operational. The system in Hull offered
Anglia and Yorkshire, but this changed to Yorkshire and TyneTees when
Belmont was re-assigned.

The white boxes were fun, but the output could have quite a voltage on
it! The baseband sound was amplified, and could be fed via a rheostat
to a speaker directly without need for local amplification. It was
normal usage to listen to a radio station via the TV speaker, with the
TV turned off!

This web site looks to have a lot of the tech data
http://web.ukonline.co.uk/jeremy.thompson/rediffusion.htm

[Rob]

The Rediffusion ads are still about. I saw a reel a couple of years ago (at
the IBC?) I can't remember. VERY nostalgic!

There were seperate ads for the cable side of the business as well as the tv
"rental" side which in the colour '70's WAS a licence to print money. I
believe that each region had its own ads made so Northern England would have
totally different advertising to us in the South East in Canturbury and
Brighton.

There were new sets that required a substantial deposit and older more than
3 years old "decontrolled" sets that could be put out for 1 month up front.
I won't name the (SE) manager here, but he had a system which produced more
decontrolled sets than any other Rediffusion area in the country.

It would be great to see the adverts again, is there a web archive for the
UK?

[Graham]

Post by Rob
The Rediffusion ads are still about. I saw a reel a couple of years ago (at
the IBC?) I can't remember. VERY nostalgic!
There were seperate ads for the cable side of the business as well as the tv
"rental" side which in the colour '70's WAS a licence to print money. I
believe that each region had its own ads made so Northern England would have
totally different advertising to us in the South East in Canturbury and
Brighton.
There were new sets that required a substantial deposit and older more than
3 years old "decontrolled" sets that could be put out for 1 month up front.
I won't name the (SE) manager here, but he had a system which produced more
decontrolled sets than any other Rediffusion area in the country.
It would be great to see the adverts again, is there a web archive for the
UK?

Ah yes, Government credit restrictions.

I worked for Granada at the time (GTVR)
The old Thorn 850 and 900 chassis wore worked to the death because they were
categorised as DECONS, whilst the new 1400's and 1500's could not be rented
unless the Sub(scriber) paid a deposit.

There was a sub-culture out there who laid for their rental via a
slot-meter, but that's a separate conversation.

[Alan Pemberton]

Post by Graham
There was a sub-culture out there who laid for their rental via a
slot-meter, but that's a separate conversation.

The imagery arising from that simple typo is quite mind boggling.

[Graham]

Post by Alan Pemberton

Post by Graham
There was a sub-culture out there who laid for their rental via a
slot-meter, but that's a separate conversation.

The imagery arising from that simple typo is quite mind boggling.

soc.subculture.bondage-bdsm?

Where is Sigmund when you need him?

[Russell W. Barnes]

<***@boscombe.org> wrote in message news:***@g44g2000cwa.googlegroups.com...

8><----------------------------------

Post by v***@boscombe.org
The white boxes were fun, but the output could have quite a voltage on
it! The baseband sound was amplified, and could be fed via a rheostat
to a speaker directly without need for local amplification. It was
normal usage to listen to a radio station via the TV speaker, with the
TV turned off!

Would it be at 100V line output, like a PA amp?

In Workington they made great use of piped telly on the council estates,
each house being strung together with thick black cable and black circular
boxes. ISTR in the late 1960's, a sytem run by a firm called 'British
relay' was attempted to be installed, but never got completed.

[Alan Pemberton]

Post by Russell W. Barnes
In Workington they made great use of piped telly on the council estates,
each house being strung together with thick black cable and black circular
boxes. ISTR in the late 1960's, a sytem run by a firm called 'British
relay' was attempted to be installed, but never got completed.

It was British Relay that was installed round here in precisely that
form. There were four twisted pairs, each carrying a radio channel at
af, video on an hf carrier and tv sound on an am carrier at around 2MHz.
The fourth pair was used for local programming in the great 'access
television' experiment of 1974-75 that took place in five cities before
fizzling out.

British Relay had piped radio and tv services from very early on around
Sheffield because off-air reception was generally lousy, but ironically
it was worse in the West-end private housing areas (where cable wasn't
installed) than on most council estates (where it was).

[John]

Post by Alan Pemberton

Post by Russell W. Barnes
In Workington they made great use of piped telly on the council
estates, each house being strung together with thick black cable
and black circular boxes. ISTR in the late 1960's, a sytem run by
a firm called 'British relay' was attempted to be installed, but
never got completed.

It was British Relay that was installed round here in precisely that
form. There were four twisted pairs, each carrying a radio channel at
af, video on an hf carrier and tv sound on an am carrier at around
2MHz. The fourth pair was used for local programming in the great
'access television' experiment of 1974-75 that took place in five
cities before fizzling out.
British Relay had piped radio and tv services from very early on
around Sheffield because off-air reception was generally lousy, but
ironically it was worse in the West-end private housing areas (where
cable wasn't installed) than on most council estates (where it was).

I think it was installed into most council estates being constructed
at the time, or shortly afterwards. I remember seeing British Relay
in a council estate which had good reception of all services.

I suppose it was the councils way of getting rid of all the TV aerials
which were an advertisement to local burglars that somebody had a UHF
TV, which would be targeted the owners went out and the aerials used to
go missing as well.

I can just imagine some burglar turning the TV on first to see if was
colour before removing it from the owners house.

J

[Russell W. Barnes]

"John" <***@nospamAAEnospam.com> wrote in message news:dc0oka$a7i$***@nwrdmz02.dmz.ncs.ea.ibs-infra.bt.com...

8><------------------------------------

Post by John
I suppose it was the councils way of getting rid of all the TV aerials
which were an advertisement to local burglars that somebody had a UHF
TV, which would be targeted the owners went out and the aerials used to
go missing as well.

Perhaps it was an 'opium-of-the-masses' sort of thing to keep everyone
indoors and off the streets! It was cerainly a very egalitarian
arrangement, though I never remember private homes having the opportunity to
receive piped telly.

I suppose they must've paid a TV licence like any other viewer, or was it
all part and parcel of the set rental costs?

[Doctor D]

Post by Russell W. Barnes
Perhaps it was an 'opium-of-the-masses' sort of thing to keep everyone
indoors and off the streets! It was cerainly a very egalitarian
arrangement, though I never remember private homes having the opportunity to
receive piped telly.

In the systems I was familiar with in Wales, the cables ran into areas of
private housing as well as council owned.

[Ivan]

Post by Doctor D

Post by Russell W. Barnes
Perhaps it was an 'opium-of-the-masses' sort of thing to keep everyone
indoors and off the streets! It was cerainly a very egalitarian
arrangement, though I never remember private homes having the

opportunity

Post by Doctor D
to

Post by Russell W. Barnes
receive piped telly.

In the systems I was familiar with in Wales, the cables ran into areas of
private housing as well as council owned.

There's a small private estate nearby where all of the houses incorporated
Rediffusion TV when they were built in the late 1960s.

All of the (now long defunct) cable is in underground ducts, with no
external cables visible inside the house, as they were run inside the walls,
so the only thing showing was a white flush mounted wall switch,

The reason for this was that the original title deeds stipulated (and
presumably still do) no external aerials, and also only allowed open-plan
gardens.

[Alex Bird]

Post by John
I can just imagine some burglar turning the TV on first to see if was
colour before removing it from the owners house.

Come now, if you bought a colour tv back then surely it had a big
badge saying 'colour', you want to get your money's worth.

A

[m***@privacy.net]

On 25 Jul,

Post by Alex Bird

Post by John
I can just imagine some burglar turning the TV on first to see if was
colour before removing it from the owners house.

Come now, if you bought a colour tv back then surely it had a big
badge saying 'colour', you want to get your money's worth.

I thought that if it was facing the window it must be colour, and away from
the window, black and white.

[m***@emgee.demon.co.uk]

Post by Alex Bird

Post by John
I can just imagine some burglar turning the TV on first to see if was
colour before removing it from the owners house.

Come now, if you bought a colour tv back then surely it had a big
badge saying 'colour', you want to get your money's worth.

Surely it was easy enough to tell anyway in those days. If he could lift
it on his own then it wasn't colour.

[Mike Crowe]

Post by Alan Pemberton
It was British Relay that was installed round here in precisely that
form. There were four twisted pairs, each carrying a radio channel at
af, video on an hf carrier and tv sound on an am carrier at around 2MHz.
The fourth pair was used for local programming in the great 'access
television' experiment of 1974-75 that took place in five cities before
fizzling out.

The installer that came to fit our TV aerial claimed that the wire we
had connecting us to next door was British Relay. I chopped it and
took it down just the other week. It surprised me that the cable was
multicore - I'd assumed both by its size and function that it would be
coax.

We've still got a repeater box or some other important part of it
attached to the house. It was attached rather well and will have to
wait to come down.

The installer claimed that it was Channel Four that killed it. At that
point it offered no advantages over an aerial.

The house was built as a council house around 1951 - is it possible
that it was there from new? If so it would probably be the reason why
we're (theoretically) not allowed to have a TV aerial.

[Alan Pemberton]

Post by Mike Crowe
The house was built as a council house around 1951 - is it possible
that it was there from new? If so it would probably be the reason why
we're (theoretically) not allowed to have a TV aerial.

Our council house was built (uncabled) in 1949. I remember them coming
round and wiring up all the houses on our estate when I was still at
primary school in the late fifties or early sixties. However, I'm sure
my granddad, who lived in a much worse signal area (our reception was
perfect on a loft aerial) had had cable for as long as I can remember.

So it was probably an ongoing 1940s/50s/60s job which then ground to a
halt, a bit like the second wave of cabling has. Certainly I remember
other council estates built in the early seventies that were not cabled
as such - they had local communal aerials and a distribution system and
were rubbish

[Joel Rowbottom]

Post by Russell W. Barnes
Would it be at 100V line output, like a PA amp?

50V, IIRC.

[Ivan]

Post by Joel Rowbottom

Post by Russell W. Barnes
Would it be at 100V line output, like a PA amp?

50V, IIRC.

You're obviously much too young to remember back to those halcyon days when
the wall switch was actually made of a die-cast metal, and most post war
slums had more than their fair share of dampness.

Even a lowly 50 volts could sometimes certainly make changing from the
'Light programme' to the 'Home service' an interesting experience for the
non-initiated!

I don't know whether it was a true story or an urban myth, but some years
ago an installation guy told me that someone he knew had mistakenly actually
tapped into the high level link (which ran between sub-stations) and
installed a sub, apparently for the few seconds that it lasted 'the music
was extremely loud'!

Post by Joel Rowbottom
--
Joel Rowbottom, joel<at>fotopic<dot>net
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[Joel Rowbottom]

Post by Ivan

Post by Joel Rowbottom
50V, IIRC.

You're obviously much too young to remember back to those halcyon days when
the wall switch was actually made of a die-cast metal, and most post war
slums had more than their fair share of dampness.

Indeed, I'm a young'un ;)

When the cable had passed to Multichannel in Hull in the early 90's, we
got a multitester on the links behind the houses, and this was 50VAC
anyway, from my notes.

Also maybe of interest from the Rediffusion Engineering Journal, Vol.1
No.8 (September 1971):-

"In the days before transistor feeder amplifiers such as the A.623 and
the AA.105, Rediffusion links were usually High Level Links carrying a
voltage of up to 660V, supplied by large amplifiers, typically the A.126
and A.40. The object of the high voltage was of course to minimised the
copper loss and so permit the use of wire of a moderate gauge. Service
Level Links are the current system and, from the foregoing reasoning, is
a logical development of the High Level Link system in that small,
high-quality line amplifiers are used to drive the link system."

BR


jx

[Ivan]

Post by Joel Rowbottom

Post by Ivan

Post by Joel Rowbottom
50V, IIRC.

You're obviously much too young to remember back to those halcyon days when
the wall switch was actually made of a die-cast metal, and most post war
slums had more than their fair share of dampness.

Indeed, I'm a young'un ;)
When the cable had passed to Multichannel in Hull in the early 90's, we
got a multitester on the links behind the houses, and this was 50VAC
anyway, from my notes.
Also maybe of interest from the Rediffusion Engineering Journal, Vol.1
No.8 (September 1971):-
"In the days before transistor feeder amplifiers such as the A.623 and
the AA.105, Rediffusion links were usually High Level Links carrying a
voltage of up to 660V, supplied by large amplifiers, typically the A.126
and A.40. The object of the high voltage was of course to minimised the
copper loss and so permit the use of wire of a moderate gauge. Service
Level Links are the current system and, from the foregoing reasoning, is
a logical development of the High Level Link system in that small,
high-quality line amplifiers are used to drive the link system."

Well 660 volts would certainly explain the high volume level!

On a more serious note, sad to relate that when I worked at Bristol
Rediffusion during the 1960s, an engineer was actually electrocuted and died
whilst working on one of those amplifiers.

I've also been been told that in certain areas of town the high level link
was carried across chimney stacks (with the catenary brackets painted red to
warn the unwary) this arrangement apparently used to give a pretty firework
display in damp weather..but again just hearsay.

Post by Joel Rowbottom
BR
jx
--
Joel Rowbottom, joel<at>fotopic<dot>net
13M+ photos :: 210+ countries :: Free gallery at http://fotopic.net
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[Russell W. Barnes]

"Ivan" <ivan'H'***@yahoo.co.uk> wrote in message news:***@individual.net

8><--------------------------------------------

Post by Ivan
I've also been been told that in certain areas of town the high level link
was carried across chimney stacks (with the catenary brackets painted red to
warn the unwary) this arrangement apparently used to give a pretty firework
display in damp weather..but again just hearsay.

Was the high-level system carried across chimneys on open feeders with
insulators, then, like HF transmission lines or old open 600Z telephone
wires?

ISTR an article in 'Practical Witless' which described an early
wire sound-broadcasting system (possibly 1930's), but I'm damned if
I can find it! A brief 'Google' revealed this (Rediffusion)
sound-broadcast system to be used in places like Barbados and Sierra
Leone, etc....
--

Regds,

Russell W. B.
http://www.huttonrow.co.uk

[Ivan]

Post by Russell W. Barnes
8><--------------------------------------------

Post by Ivan
I've also been been told that in certain areas of town the high level link
was carried across chimney stacks (with the catenary brackets painted red to
warn the unwary) this arrangement apparently used to give a pretty firework
display in damp weather..but again just hearsay.

Was the high-level system carried across chimneys on open feeders with
insulators, then, like HF transmission lines or old open 600Z telephone
wires?
ISTR an article in 'Practical Witless' which described an early
wire sound-broadcasting system (possibly 1930's), but I'm damned if
I can find it! A brief 'Google' revealed this (Rediffusion)
sound-broadcast system to be used in places like Barbados and Sierra
Leone, etc....
--

I don't know the exact arrangement Russell as this was even before my time,
coupled with the fact that I had little connection with that side of things,
and many of the people who would know are sadly now no longer with us.

However there are still one or two left who I keep in contact with, so if I
can find out more on this subject I will post the details .

Post by Russell W. Barnes
Regds,
Russell W. B.
http://www.huttonrow.co.uk
--
Posted via Mailgate.ORG Server - http://www.Mailgate.ORG

[N***@m.here.please]

Post by v***@boscombe.org
This web site looks to have a lot of the tech data
http://web.ukonline.co.uk/jeremy.thompson/rediffusion.htm

More info on a similar system is here -
http://web.ukonline.co.uk/uax13/cabletv.htm

[Joel Rowbottom]

Post by N***@m.here.please

Post by v***@boscombe.org
This web site looks to have a lot of the tech data
http://web.ukonline.co.uk/jeremy.thompson/rediffusion.htm

More info on a similar system is here -
http://web.ukonline.co.uk/uax13/cabletv.htm

There's bits about the Hull system at:
http://www.hackhull.com/projects/rediffusion/index.html

I'm not entirely sure what happened to the Beverley Road HQ - perhaps
someone on the list knows if it's still derelict, or if something's been
done with it?

[Tim Mitchell]

Post by Joel Rowbottom

Post by N***@m.here.please

Post by v***@boscombe.org
This web site looks to have a lot of the tech data
http://web.ukonline.co.uk/jeremy.thompson/rediffusion.htm

More info on a similar system is here -
http://web.ukonline.co.uk/uax13/cabletv.htm

http://www.hackhull.com/projects/rediffusion/index.html
I'm not entirely sure what happened to the Beverley Road HQ - perhaps
someone on the list knows if it's still derelict, or if something's
been done with it?

The entire block was demolished about 3 yrs ago and is now a Netto
supermarket and a doctor's surgery.

[charles]

Post by Clive
I had one of those in the early 90's all painted up in the Window sill of
my rented house in Pontypridd. After de-gunking it and wiring it up I
found that it was still 'live' and supplied all the channels plus Sky and
Bravo. I still haven't a clue who was supplying the signal, I certainly
never saw any adverts or contacts for cable TV in the area.

ISTR a company called Red Dragon took over from Redifusion.

[Mike]

Post by Anorak
Some time ago probably early 80's we had a small while box on the window
sill which you use to change the channel with, It was a small click step
control with channel nos labelled A, B,C etc. One channel oddly gave BBC
London I think or was it ITV London but the sound was from a radio station
at certain times of the day, It was a very primiative form of cable tv from
Redifusion but was this local or national ?? Anyone else had this setup ?

Funnily enough I was just last week talking to an NTL engineer (?) in
the Fulham Road in London about this.
He was working in a green cabinet by the road just opposite where
British Relay Wireless (later Rediffusion) had their headend in about 1967.
At the time they had line feeds of BBC TV and radio from Broadcasting
House switching Centre and control room and these were fed over the
multipair cable (about 4 pairs if I remember correctly) network around
Fulham.
The video was fed on something like a 10Mc/s carrier and the audio was
100v line over the pair so it could be fed direct to a loudspeaker.
There are still loads of these cable around the area dangling off
chimneys and across windows - no-one seems to feel like taking them down.
Mostly the cables were fixed to buildings or slung across back gardens
but occasionally went underground across busy roads.
There were square 'tap' boxes on the houses and a lighter guage
multipair cable went into the house where there was the famous switchbox.

In about 1967, I was sent down from Switching Centre to do a site survey
for them to see if the line feed could be replaced by an off-air feed
from Crystal Palace.

The old shop is now not even a radio rentals but a food store!!

Mike

[charles]

Post by Mike
There are still loads of these cable around the area dangling off
chimneys and across windows - no-one seems to feel like taking them down.

they were still visible in Frithville Gardens when I walked down it a couple
of months ago.

[Chris Youlden]

Post by Mike
Funnily enough I was just last week talking to an NTL engineer (?) in
the Fulham Road in London about this.
He was working in a green cabinet by the road just opposite where
British Relay Wireless (later Rediffusion) had their headend in about 1967.
At the time they had line feeds of BBC TV and radio from Broadcasting
House switching Centre and control room and these were fed over the
multipair cable (about 4 pairs if I remember correctly) network around
Fulham.

[]

Post by Mike
In about 1967, I was sent down from Switching Centre to do a site survey
for them to see if the line feed could be replaced by an off-air feed
from Crystal Palace.
The old shop is now not even a radio rentals but a food store!!

Around 1970-ish BBC Bristol had a similar arrangement, but the vision
feeds were
ceased when 625 lines commenced. However, audio feeds of the radio and
tv networks
continued to be fed to Rediffusion on spare pairs.

One evening we started receiving some complaints from BBC1 viewers that
sound was leading pictures by 5 minutes! After checking that it wasn't
April 1st
then monitoring everything we could think of, some bright spark realised the
complaints were from Rediffusion customers.

It so happened that BBC Wales had repeated a Welsh PPB on Wenvoe Ch 5
(405 lines)
as it was ruled that many Welsh viewers watched this txr. BBC Cardiff
had opted out
Wenvoe but Rediffusion fed their customers the audio from the BBC
Bristol line feed,
but vision off-air. So from then on until BBC Wales was once again
synchronous
with London, sound and vision were out by 5 minutes.

[Richard Bentley]

Post by Anorak
Some time ago probably early 80's we had a small while box on the window
sill which you use to change the channel with, It was a small click step
control with channel nos labelled A, B,C etc. One channel oddly gave BBC
London I think or was it ITV London but the sound was from a radio station
at certain times of the day, It was a very primiative form of cable tv
from Redifusion but was this local or national ?? Anyone else had this
setup ?

When I worked in the development lab of Baird TV, Bradford, I remember we
developed sets to work on this type of system for two companies, Rediffusion
and Top Rank. The Rediffusion was the better system to my memory, (it was
nearly 40 years ago!) but both used a low modulation frequency (<10 MHz)
twisted pair cable system with 80 or 100 Volts baseband audio which could
give you a nasty nip!

Because of the cable loss with frequency, slope compensation was used with a
selectable jumper adjusted at the customers home. The ADSL of today has a
similar but automatic adjustment.

I remember that we were to demostrate the Rediffusion prototype colour TV
set we had built and had it ready to demonstrate to one of the Rediffusion
bosses. Everything was fine until the actual demo when the whole set went
into video oscillation! It later turned out that there was colour subcarrier
leakage from the video signal getting back into the video RF input
circuitry. Don't forget that these early sets were hybrids with a valve
video amplifier and 100 Volts p-p of video heading up a wire to the CRT
cathodes. Colour difference signals were high level and fed to the
appropriate CRT grids.

Cheers,

Richard

[John Patrick]

Sounds like the system that used to exist here in Grimsby/Cleethorpes area
decades ago much earlier than the 80's. It was again supplied by
rediffusion. We didn't have it at our house but one of my aunt/uncles had
it. More or less as you said they had a plastic box on the window sill with
rotary click switch on that got various TV and radio stations. I have the
starnge feeling that one of the stations here was actually radio luxembourg
but that could have been my anorak memory playing tricks.

I seem to remember that it was not as simple as just connecting to an
ordinary TV they had to be a special TV that was rented the total package
included the TV and the channels. This would be in late 60's early 70's here
in Grimsby / Cleethorpes area.

In the 70's a kind of competitor sprang up by the name of 'Clearvision' I
think its name. They cabled lots of streets with cabling strung from house
to house with quite frequent largish boxes mounted on the sides of houses,
some kind of booster box I guess. This was much simpler they just supplied
the signal and you just connected it to a normal TV. My dad went for this as
I remember it was basically crap no better than the outside aerial we'd
previously had but I think it was a rental TV and the Tv and signal was all
part of the package. The receiving aerial for this was supposedly on top of
the Dock Tower, local landmark on Grimsby docks about 300 ft high I think.

Regards
JP

Post by Richard Bentley

Post by Anorak
Some time ago probably early 80's we had a small while box on the window
sill which you use to change the channel with, It was a small click step
control with channel nos labelled A, B,C etc. One channel oddly gave BBC
London I think or was it ITV London but the sound was from a radio station
at certain times of the day, It was a very primiative form of cable tv
from Redifusion but was this local or national ?? Anyone else had this
setup ?

When I worked in the development lab of Baird TV, Bradford, I remember we
developed sets to work on this type of system for two companies, Rediffusion
and Top Rank. The Rediffusion was the better system to my memory, (it was
nearly 40 years ago!) but both used a low modulation frequency (<10 MHz)
twisted pair cable system with 80 or 100 Volts baseband audio which could
give you a nasty nip!
Because of the cable loss with frequency, slope compensation was used with a
selectable jumper adjusted at the customers home. The ADSL of today has a
similar but automatic adjustment.
I remember that we were to demostrate the Rediffusion prototype colour TV
set we had built and had it ready to demonstrate to one of the Rediffusion
bosses. Everything was fine until the actual demo when the whole set went
into video oscillation! It later turned out that there was colour subcarrier
leakage from the video signal getting back into the video RF input
circuitry. Don't forget that these early sets were hybrids with a valve
video amplifier and 100 Volts p-p of video heading up a wire to the CRT
cathodes. Colour difference signals were high level and fed to the
appropriate CRT grids.
Cheers,
Richard

[Ian Jelf]

Post by John Patrick
Sounds like the system that used to exist here in Grimsby/Cleethorpes area
decades ago much earlier than the 80's.

And here in the West Midlands, where it was run by "British Relay" and
dated back (for radio, obviously) before the Second World War.

Post by John Patrick
It was again supplied by
rediffusion. We didn't have it at our house but one of my aunt/uncles had
it. More or less as you said they had a plastic box on the window sill with
rotary click switch on that got various TV and radio stations.

The British Relay ones here had such a box on the old radio only set ups
(of which an aunt of mine had one as late as the 1960s) but the TV ones
were different, the selection done on the set.

Post by John Patrick
I have the
starnge feeling that one of the stations here was actually radio luxembourg
but that could have been my anorak memory playing tricks.

Well the British Relay System included a special "hybrid" programme of
music from selected continental stations which their publicity stated
was picked up at their special receiving station on the East Coast!

Post by John Patrick
I seem to remember that it was not as simple as just connecting to an
ordinary TV they had to be a special TV that was rented the total package
included the TV and the channels.

Indeed not. I suspect that there was effectively no tuner as such
inside the TV.

In the early 1970s, the unused "4" button" suddenly sprang to life as
they added Granada, which we thought was incredibly advanced!

An engineer once told us that cable TV was the way to go in the future
and that British Relay had already experimented with adding a movie
channel only with their system in Peterborough. Maybe that was (or was
similar to) the "Clearvision" system mentioned by John.

Oh while writing this, my mother reminds me that Relay used to send an
annual postal order for 2 / 6 for the wayleave of their cable across the
first house that they owned!

[charles]

Post by Ian Jelf

Post by John Patrick
I seem to remember that it was not as simple as just connecting to an
ordinary TV they had to be a special TV that was rented the total package
included the TV and the channels.

Indeed not. I suspect that there was effectively no tuner as such
inside the TV.

The distribution was at approx 10MHz, close enought to 10.7MHz
conventionally used for i.f. in tv receivers for the strip to be retuned.
It was basically a tv set less the RF tuner.