Goodbye 247m

[Mark Carver]

Bauer are to shut down the MW network on 1215 kHz (aka 247m) used by
Absolute Radio on Jan 23rd

The end of another era !

https://planetradio.co.uk/absolute-radio/music/news/how-you-listen-to-absolute-radio-is-changing/

Almost certainly the huge electricity bill, for the tiny amount of
listeners is the reason.

[Andy Burns]

Bauer are to shut down the MW network on 1215 kHz (aka 247m) used by Absolute
Radio on Jan 23rd
The end of another era !

How long for TalkSport on 275/285?

[Scott]

Post by Andy Burns

Bauer are to shut down the MW network on 1215 kHz (aka 247m) used by Absolute
Radio on Jan 23rd
The end of another era !

How long for TalkSport on 275/285?

Or Gold on 1548 kHz? Or does the population in the London area
justify the cost of a single transmitter?

[Mark Carver]

Post by Scott

Post by Andy Burns

Bauer are to shut down the MW network on 1215 kHz (aka 247m) used by Absolute
Radio on Jan 23rd
The end of another era !

How long for TalkSport on 275/285?

Or Gold on 1548 kHz? Or does the population in the London area
justify the cost of a single transmitter?

The Saffron Green site is very large (in terms of land) and the
transmitters quite expensive to run, particularly 1548 kHz (about 25kW
of power (97.5 kW EMRP) LBC on 1152 less so (5.5 kW/27.5 kW)

[Scott]

On Wed, 4 Jan 2023 14:03:42 +0000, Mark Carver

Post by Mark Carver

Post by Scott

Post by Andy Burns

Bauer are to shut down the MW network on 1215 kHz (aka 247m) used by Absolute
Radio on Jan 23rd
The end of another era !

How long for TalkSport on 275/285?

Or Gold on 1548 kHz? Or does the population in the London area
justify the cost of a single transmitter?

The Saffron Green site is very large (in terms of land) and the
transmitters quite expensive to run, particularly 1548 kHz (about 25kW
of power (97.5 kW EMRP) LBC on 1152 less so (5.5 kW/27.5 kW)

But on a per listener basis will the cost not be quite low, given the
massive population of the reception area?

[Mark Carver]

Post by Scott
On Wed, 4 Jan 2023 14:03:42 +0000, Mark Carver

Post by Mark Carver

Post by Scott

Post by Andy Burns

Bauer are to shut down the MW network on 1215 kHz (aka 247m) used by Absolute
Radio on Jan 23rd
The end of another era !

How long for TalkSport on 275/285?

Or Gold on 1548 kHz? Or does the population in the London area
justify the cost of a single transmitter?

The Saffron Green site is very large (in terms of land) and the
transmitters quite expensive to run, particularly 1548 kHz (about 25kW
of power (97.5 kW EMRP) LBC on 1152 less so (5.5 kW/27.5 kW)

But on a per listener basis will the cost not be quite low, given the
massive population of the reception area?

I don't know, I doubt there are many listeners to either station who
haven't already moved to DAB/On Line

[Brian Gaff]

I'd imagine the main people listening to medium wave are elderly, if the
folk I meet are anything to go by.
Add to that that a lot of music stations are seen as a waste of time now
the younger folk simply subscribe and listen to music they want to or try
out new stuff with no DJ presorting what they can hear.
I do think at least in the short term, a station broadcasting the old Frank
Sinatra and like sounding stuff and orchestral easy listening might be a
fair market. These are those technology challenged who have none of their
music played anywhere for linear listening any more. However it will
probably be a diminishing market as the folk die, and are replaced by
techno enabled folk who if they want to listen to that music, can, whenever
they want to.
So in the end is radio doomed?
Brian
--
--:
This newsgroup posting comes to you directly from...
The Sofa of Brian Gaff...
***@blueyonder.co.uk
Blind user, so no pictures please
Note this Signature is meaningless.!

Post by Mark Carver

Post by Scott
On Wed, 4 Jan 2023 14:03:42 +0000, Mark Carver

Post by Mark Carver

Post by Scott

Post by Andy Burns

Bauer are to shut down the MW network on 1215 kHz (aka 247m) used by Absolute
Radio on Jan 23rd
The end of another era !

How long for TalkSport on 275/285?

Or Gold on 1548 kHz? Or does the population in the London area
justify the cost of a single transmitter?

The Saffron Green site is very large (in terms of land) and the
transmitters quite expensive to run, particularly 1548 kHz (about 25kW
of power (97.5 kW EMRP) LBC on 1152 less so (5.5 kW/27.5 kW)

But on a per listener basis will the cost not be quite low, given the
massive population of the reception area?

I don't know, I doubt there are many listeners to either station who
haven't already moved to DAB/On Line

[Stephen Wolstenholme]

Post by Brian Gaff
I'd imagine the main people listening to medium wave are elderly, if the
folk I meet are anything to go by.

I'm elderly but I haven't needed to listen to medium wave for about 60
years! I can't remember what I listened to then.

[John Williamson]

Post by Stephen Wolstenholme

Post by Brian Gaff
I'd imagine the main people listening to medium wave are elderly, if the
folk I meet are anything to go by.

I'm elderly but I haven't needed to listen to medium wave for about 60
years! I can't remember what I listened to then.

<Grin> I can. I used to listen to Radio 1 on 247 metres, until it got
shifted to 275 and 285 metres and they put Radio 3 on 247 metres.

[charles]

Post by John Williamson

Post by Stephen Wolstenholme

Post by Brian Gaff
I'd imagine the main people listening to medium wave are elderly, if
the folk I meet are anything to go by.

I'm elderly but I haven't needed to listen to medium wave for about 60
years! I can't remember what I listened to then.

<Grin> I can. I used to listen to Radio 1 on 247 metres, until it got
shifted to 275 and 285 metres and they put Radio 3 on 247 metres.

And then 247m was given to a commercial service. I took a phone call from a
woman who had been excellently served by Westerglen, but then got nothing
because the new local FM transmitter wasn't opened in time. She went on
and on and eventually said "I'm going to complain to the Secretary of
State, I met him at a reception the other week". To which I said "Oh,
really, I was at school with Ian." That shut her up.

[Scott]

On Wed, 4 Jan 2023 16:17:07 +0000, John Williamson

Post by John Williamson

Post by Stephen Wolstenholme

Post by Brian Gaff
I'd imagine the main people listening to medium wave are elderly, if the
folk I meet are anything to go by.

I'm elderly but I haven't needed to listen to medium wave for about 60
years! I can't remember what I listened to then.

<Grin> I can. I used to listen to Radio 1 on 247 metres, until it got
shifted to 275 and 285 metres and they put Radio 3 on 247 metres.

I remember that too.

275 and 285
275 and 285
We're on a new waveband
And still the best in the land

[Rink]

Post by Stephen Wolstenholme

Post by Brian Gaff
I'd imagine the main people listening to medium wave are elderly, if the
folk I meet are anything to go by.

I'm elderly but I haven't needed to listen to medium wave for about 60
years! I can't remember what I listened to then.

You did not listen to any offshore station?

[MB]

Post by Rink
You did not listen to any offshore station?

A few times until the novelty wore off. I still tend to avoid listening
to the ex-offshore presenters on mainstream radio.

[MB]

Post by Rink
You did not listen to any offshore station?

Like some others I refused to monitor one at work when we were
instructed to do so by GOD (i.e. the top man). I asked to see his
authorisation from the PMG to listen to an illegal transmission.

I have listened to illegal transmissions since them but at the request
of the authorities and assisted in getting an airband pirate caught and
prosecuted.

[Stephen Wolstenholme]

On Sun, 8 Jan 2023 15:00:10 +0100, Rink

Post by Rink

Post by Stephen Wolstenholme

Post by Brian Gaff
I'd imagine the main people listening to medium wave are elderly, if the
folk I meet are anything to go by.

I'm elderly but I haven't needed to listen to medium wave for about 60
years! I can't remember what I listened to then.

You did not listen to any offshore station?

The reception was bad where I lived so I did not try to listen for
more than a few minutes.

[Brian Gregory]

Post by Rink

Post by Stephen Wolstenholme

Post by Brian Gaff
I'd imagine the main people listening to medium wave are elderly, if the
folk I meet are anything to go by.

I'm elderly but I haven't needed to listen to medium wave for about 60
years! I can't remember what I listened to then.

You did not listen to any offshore station?

or Radio Luxembourg?

[Graham.]

I listened, but didn't inhale ;)
Speaking of which, I remember cigarette paper being advertised on
Radio Monticello

[Graham.]

And on Radio Monte Carlo as well!

[Scott]

On Wed, 4 Jan 2023 14:31:00 +0000, Mark Carver

Post by Mark Carver

Post by Scott
On Wed, 4 Jan 2023 14:03:42 +0000, Mark Carver

Post by Mark Carver

Post by Scott

Post by Andy Burns

Bauer are to shut down the MW network on 1215 kHz (aka 247m) used by Absolute
Radio on Jan 23rd
The end of another era !

How long for TalkSport on 275/285?

Or Gold on 1548 kHz? Or does the population in the London area
justify the cost of a single transmitter?

The Saffron Green site is very large (in terms of land) and the
transmitters quite expensive to run, particularly 1548 kHz (about 25kW
of power (97.5 kW EMRP) LBC on 1152 less so (5.5 kW/27.5 kW)

But on a per listener basis will the cost not be quite low, given the
massive population of the reception area?

I don't know, I doubt there are many listeners to either station who
haven't already moved to DAB/On Line

Even in cars and vans driving at 2 mph round the Greater London area
:-)

[Scott]

On Wed, 4 Jan 2023 14:31:00 +0000, Mark Carver

Post by Mark Carver

Post by Scott
On Wed, 4 Jan 2023 14:03:42 +0000, Mark Carver

Post by Mark Carver

Post by Scott

Post by Andy Burns

Bauer are to shut down the MW network on 1215 kHz (aka 247m) used by Absolute
Radio on Jan 23rd
The end of another era !

How long for TalkSport on 275/285?

Or Gold on 1548 kHz? Or does the population in the London area
justify the cost of a single transmitter?

The Saffron Green site is very large (in terms of land) and the
transmitters quite expensive to run, particularly 1548 kHz (about 25kW
of power (97.5 kW EMRP) LBC on 1152 less so (5.5 kW/27.5 kW)

But on a per listener basis will the cost not be quite low, given the
massive population of the reception area?

I don't know, I doubt there are many listeners to either station who
haven't already moved to DAB/On Line

I found this: http://www.frequencyfinder.org.uk/Opinion_AM.pdf

If you look at Appendix, Gold in London is shown as low cost per
listener, almost in the very low cost category.

[Brian Gaff]

The daft thing at the moment with the clearance of stations, Here in Surrey,
I can now pick up Caroline and Manx radio AM most of the time. Its a strange
world. Personally, I'd like to see the end of Naive Christian, sorry I
forgot its real name, on Medium wave. We have one very near here that
splatters all over the place and overloads most sets.
What about R5 though? That is on Medium wave also.
At the moment in the evenings you can mostly hear Spanish stations. One I
believe is in the canary isles, the big give away is the word canarias used
a lot!



What is the actual input power of the London Brookmans Park 247m
transmitter, I wonder?
Brian
--
--:
This newsgroup posting comes to you directly from...
The Sofa of Brian Gaff...
***@blueyonder.co.uk
Blind user, so no pictures please
Note this Signature is meaningless.!

Post by Scott

Post by Andy Burns

Bauer are to shut down the MW network on 1215 kHz (aka 247m) used by Absolute
Radio on Jan 23rd
The end of another era !

How long for TalkSport on 275/285?

Or Gold on 1548 kHz? Or does the population in the London area
justify the cost of a single transmitter?

[John Williamson]

Post by Brian Gaff
What is the actual input power of the London Brookmans Park 247m
transmitter, I wonder?
Brian

Wikilies says 125 kilowatts, but that may be effective radiated power,
not input.

[Rink]

Post by John Williamson

Post by Brian Gaff
What is the actual input power of the London Brookmans Park 247m
transmitter, I wonder?
 Brian

Wikilies says 125 kilowatts, but that may be effective radiated power,
not input.

Absolute reduced the ERP's.
I think here are the actual ERP's:
<http://www.mwlist.org/mwlist_quick_and_easy.php?area=1&kHz=1215>

Rink

[Mark Carver]

Post by Rink

Post by John Williamson

Post by Brian Gaff
What is the actual input power of the London Brookmans Park 247m
transmitter, I wonder?
 Brian

Wikilies says 125 kilowatts, but that may be effective radiated
power, not input.

Absolute reduced the ERP's.
<http://www.mwlist.org/mwlist_quick_and_easy.php?area=1&kHz=1215>

Yes. Ofcom allowed them to reduce their EMRPs by 3dB a few years ago

Talk Sport (on 1089/1053) I gather operate at -6dB during daylight hours.

[MB]

Post by Mark Carver
Yes. Ofcom allowed them to reduce their EMRPs by 3dB a few years ago
Talk Sport (on 1089/1053) I gather operate at -6dB during daylight hours.

Do the main BBC Medium Wave transmitters increase their power at night?
Used to have go around every night bringing on the main transmitter at
Burghead which took about a quarter of an hour or so and lots of running
around.

[Mark Carver]

Post by MB

Post by Mark Carver
Yes. Ofcom allowed them to reduce their EMRPs by 3dB a few years ago
Talk Sport (on 1089/1053) I gather operate at -6dB during daylight hours.

Do the main BBC Medium Wave transmitters increase their power at night?

If they did, they won't be now.

They must be bursting to switch off the high power MW and LW stuff now.

It's said that Talk Sport are only keeping their MW transmitters going,
because BBC 5Live are.
Let's see who blinks first !

[MB]

Post by Mark Carver
If they did, they won't be now.
They must be bursting to switch off the high power MW and LW stuff now.
It's said that Talk Sport are only keeping their MW transmitters going,
because BBC 5Live are.
Let's see who blinks first !

I was there in the Summer so never got really dark - difficult to get
some zzzz on night shift :-)

T1 was switched on the middle of the evening as it got slightly darker.

[Scott]

Post by MB

Post by Mark Carver
Yes. Ofcom allowed them to reduce their EMRPs by 3dB a few years ago
Talk Sport (on 1089/1053) I gather operate at -6dB during daylight hours.

Do the main BBC Medium Wave transmitters increase their power at night?
Used to have go around every night bringing on the main transmitter at
Burghead which took about a quarter of an hour or so and lots of running
around.

I thought they reduced them at night to limit interference caused in
other countries allocated the same frequency, on the basis that radio
waves travel further during hours of darkness.

[Scott]

Post by Brian Gaff
The daft thing at the moment with the clearance of stations, Here in Surrey,
I can now pick up Caroline and Manx radio AM most of the time. Its a strange
world. Personally, I'd like to see the end of Naive Christian, sorry I
forgot its real name, on Medium wave. We have one very near here that
splatters all over the place and overloads most sets.
What about R5 though? That is on Medium wave also.

I believe the BBC has announced that R5 LIve AM will end fairly soon.

[Graham.]

At the moment in the evenings you can mostly hear Spanish stations.

Beware of Greeks apparently speaking Spanish. The first time I
heard London Greek Radio I thought there was a lift on.

[the dog from that film you saw]

Post by Scott

Post by Andy Burns

Bauer are to shut down the MW network on 1215 kHz (aka 247m) used by Absolute
Radio on Jan 23rd
The end of another era !

How long for TalkSport on 275/285?

Or Gold on 1548 kHz? Or does the population in the London area
justify the cost of a single transmitter?

i can't imagine listening to music in medium wave quality - DAB is bad
enough.

[Scott]

On Wed, 4 Jan 2023 17:16:13 +0000, the dog from that film you saw

Post by the dog from that film you saw

Post by Scott

Post by Andy Burns

Bauer are to shut down the MW network on 1215 kHz (aka 247m) used by Absolute
Radio on Jan 23rd
The end of another era !

How long for TalkSport on 275/285?

Or Gold on 1548 kHz? Or does the population in the London area
justify the cost of a single transmitter?

i can't imagine listening to music in medium wave quality - DAB is bad
enough.

The important thing is that you listen to the adverts :-)

[Alexander]

Post by Andy Burns

Bauer are to shut down the MW network on 1215 kHz (aka 247m) used by Absolute
Radio on Jan 23rd
The end of another era !

How long for TalkSport on 275/285?

At sites from which both TalkSport and Absolute 1215 are transmitted,
perhaps they should move some of the TalkSport broadcasts over to the
1215 frequency.

Having fewer transmitters operating nationally on the same frequency
would, I presume, lessen the associated reception problems for listeners
in fringe areas, especially in TalkSport's case, since nobody even
bothers to synchronise the feeds to the transmitters most of the time,
so multiple echoes can be heard in the background.

[Rink]

Post by Alexander

Post by Andy Burns

Bauer are to shut down the MW network on 1215 kHz (aka 247m) used by Absolute
Radio on Jan 23rd
The end of another era !

How long for TalkSport on 275/285?

At sites from which both TalkSport and Absolute 1215 are transmitted,
perhaps they should move some of the TalkSport broadcasts over to the
1215 frequency.
Having fewer transmitters operating nationally on the same frequency
would, I presume, lessen the associated reception problems for listeners
in fringe areas, especially in TalkSport's case, since nobody even
bothers to synchronise the feeds to the transmitters most of the time,
so multiple echoes can be heard in the background.

But that gets worse, if you put all transmitters on one frequency.

[Alexander]

Post by Rink

Post by Alexander

Post by Andy Burns

Bauer are to shut down the MW network on 1215 kHz (aka 247m) used by Absolute
Radio on Jan 23rd
The end of another era !

How long for TalkSport on 275/285?

At sites from which both TalkSport and Absolute 1215 are transmitted,
perhaps they should move some of the TalkSport broadcasts over to the
1215 frequency.
Having fewer transmitters operating nationally on the same frequency
would, I presume, lessen the associated reception problems for listeners
in fringe areas, especially in TalkSport's case, since nobody even
bothers to synchronise the feeds to the transmitters most of the time,
so multiple echoes can be heard in the background.

But that gets worse, if you put all transmitters on one frequency.

Which is why I was suggesting having fewer transmitters
operating on one frequency.

[Scott]

Post by Alexander

Post by Andy Burns

Bauer are to shut down the MW network on 1215 kHz (aka 247m) used by Absolute
Radio on Jan 23rd
The end of another era !

How long for TalkSport on 275/285?

At sites from which both TalkSport and Absolute 1215 are transmitted,
perhaps they should move some of the TalkSport broadcasts over to the
1215 frequency.
Having fewer transmitters operating nationally on the same frequency
would, I presume, lessen the associated reception problems for listeners
in fringe areas, especially in TalkSport's case, since nobody even
bothers to synchronise the feeds to the transmitters most of the time,
so multiple echoes can be heard in the background.

I thought at the time they should have moved R5 Live 909 kHz to 648
kHz so they would have a lower frequency with greater propagation and
two frequencies (963 and 648) metres closer together to make retuning
easier.

I assume the reason for not doing this was cost and the same will
apply at TalkSport. .

[Mark Carver]

Post by Scott
I thought at the time they should have moved R5 Live 909 kHz to 648
kHz so they would have a lower frequency with greater propagation and
two frequencies (963 and 648) metres closer together to make retuning
easier.
I assume the reason for not doing this was cost and the same will
apply at TalkSport. .

Moving the frequencies of high power MF and LF more than a few kHz
involves lots of work on the aerial systems, and often physically
altering the height of the masts etc.

Forget it, TalkSport, R5, and R4 will be 'run into the ground' without
any changes (other than reducing the power, and slowly shrinking the
present networks)

It's technically possible for TalkSport of R5 to take over the soon to
be shut down 1215 kHz transmitters at their present sites, but I'd think
unlikely. What's the point of improving reception on a platform you're
anxious to shut down !

[Tweed]

Post by Mark Carver

Post by Scott
I thought at the time they should have moved R5 Live 909 kHz to 648
kHz so they would have a lower frequency with greater propagation and
two frequencies (963 and 648) metres closer together to make retuning
easier.
I assume the reason for not doing this was cost and the same will
apply at TalkSport. .

Moving the frequencies of high power MF and LF more than a few kHz
involves lots of work on the aerial systems, and often physically
altering the height of the masts etc.
Forget it, TalkSport, R5, and R4 will be 'run into the ground' without
any changes (other than reducing the power, and slowly shrinking the
present networks)
It's technically possible for TalkSport of R5 to take over the soon to
be shut down 1215 kHz transmitters at their present sites, but I'd think
unlikely. What's the point of improving reception on a platform you're
anxious to shut down !

Is there any scope for squeezing R5 onto FM? I was always under the
impression there wasn’t room for an additional national network, but in
Berwick you can get R1-4 plus Radio Scotland.

[Scott]

On Sun, 8 Jan 2023 17:06:48 -0000 (UTC), Tweed

Post by Tweed

Post by Mark Carver

Post by Scott
I thought at the time they should have moved R5 Live 909 kHz to 648
kHz so they would have a lower frequency with greater propagation and
two frequencies (963 and 648) metres closer together to make retuning
easier.
I assume the reason for not doing this was cost and the same will
apply at TalkSport. .

Moving the frequencies of high power MF and LF more than a few kHz
involves lots of work on the aerial systems, and often physically
altering the height of the masts etc.
Forget it, TalkSport, R5, and R4 will be 'run into the ground' without
any changes (other than reducing the power, and slowly shrinking the
present networks)
It's technically possible for TalkSport of R5 to take over the soon to
be shut down 1215 kHz transmitters at their present sites, but I'd think
unlikely. What's the point of improving reception on a platform you're
anxious to shut down !

Is there any scope for squeezing R5 onto FM? I was always under the
impression there wasn’t room for an additional national network, but in
Berwick you can get R1-4 plus Radio Scotland.

Not just Berwick. In the whole of Scotland you can get R1-4 plus
Radio Scotland and usually Radio Nan Gaidheal as well.

[Mark Carver]

Post by Tweed

Post by Mark Carver

Post by Scott
I thought at the time they should have moved R5 Live 909 kHz to 648
kHz so they would have a lower frequency with greater propagation and
two frequencies (963 and 648) metres closer together to make retuning
easier.
I assume the reason for not doing this was cost and the same will
apply at TalkSport. .

Moving the frequencies of high power MF and LF more than a few kHz
involves lots of work on the aerial systems, and often physically
altering the height of the masts etc.
Forget it, TalkSport, R5, and R4 will be 'run into the ground' without
any changes (other than reducing the power, and slowly shrinking the
present networks)
It's technically possible for TalkSport of R5 to take over the soon to
be shut down 1215 kHz transmitters at their present sites, but I'd think
unlikely. What's the point of improving reception on a platform you're
anxious to shut down !

Is there any scope for squeezing R5 onto FM? I was always under the
impression there wasn’t room for an additional national network, but in
Berwick you can get R1-4 plus Radio Scotland.

Radio Scotland (and RnG, Wales, Ulster, Cymru) all use either 92-95 (or
if R4 is using those, they use the local radio sub bands which for the
BBC are 94.5 to 96.1 and 103.5 to 104.9) Or vice versa.
As there is no English style BBC  local radio outside of England that's
how the BBC manage to get their 'national' stations to fit on FM (Plus a
number of Radio 3 FM transmitters in Wales were reallocated to Radio
Wales in 2018.)

So, there's no room for Radio 5 on FM. That said, BBC Local Radio is
being run down so much now, it would make sense for R5 to take over
their FM transmitters, and just have the local news as opt outs. A bit
like the old Home Service/R4 opt outs that were replaced by BBC Local
Radio. What goes around, comes around !

[Scott]

On Sun, 8 Jan 2023 17:16:02 +0000, Mark Carver

Post by Mark Carver

Post by Tweed

Post by Mark Carver

Post by Scott
I thought at the time they should have moved R5 Live 909 kHz to 648
kHz so they would have a lower frequency with greater propagation and
two frequencies (963 and 648) metres closer together to make retuning
easier.
I assume the reason for not doing this was cost and the same will
apply at TalkSport. .

Moving the frequencies of high power MF and LF more than a few kHz
involves lots of work on the aerial systems, and often physically
altering the height of the masts etc.
Forget it, TalkSport, R5, and R4 will be 'run into the ground' without
any changes (other than reducing the power, and slowly shrinking the
present networks)
It's technically possible for TalkSport of R5 to take over the soon to
be shut down 1215 kHz transmitters at their present sites, but I'd think
unlikely. What's the point of improving reception on a platform you're
anxious to shut down !

Is there any scope for squeezing R5 onto FM? I was always under the
impression there wasn’t room for an additional national network, but in
Berwick you can get R1-4 plus Radio Scotland.

Radio Scotland (and RnG, Wales, Ulster, Cymru) all use either 92-95 (or
if R4 is using those, they use the local radio sub bands which for the
BBC are 94.5 to 96.1 and 103.5 to 104.9) Or vice versa.
As there is no English style BBC  local radio outside of England that's
how the BBC manage to get their 'national' stations to fit on FM (Plus a
number of Radio 3 FM transmitters in Wales were reallocated to Radio
Wales in 2018.)

Has this affected coverage of R3 in Wales or is the few people listen
to R3 in cars anyway and it should be okay in the home?

Post by Mark Carver
So, there's no room for Radio 5 on FM. That said, BBC Local Radio is
being run down so much now, it would make sense for R5 to take over
their FM transmitters, and just have the local news as opt outs. A bit
like the old Home Service/R4 opt outs that were replaced by BBC Local
Radio. What goes around, comes around !

But R5 Live is a news and sport station. Does local radio not have
more in common with R2 (especially in Jeremy Vine mode)? In the old
days did local radio not broadcast R2 from 8 pm onwards? Local radio
could more logically be an optout from R2.

[Mark Carver]

Post by Scott
On Sun, 8 Jan 2023 17:16:02 +0000, Mark Carver

Post by Mark Carver

Post by Tweed

Post by Mark Carver

Post by Scott
I thought at the time they should have moved R5 Live 909 kHz to 648
kHz so they would have a lower frequency with greater propagation and
two frequencies (963 and 648) metres closer together to make retuning
easier.
I assume the reason for not doing this was cost and the same will
apply at TalkSport. .

Moving the frequencies of high power MF and LF more than a few kHz
involves lots of work on the aerial systems, and often physically
altering the height of the masts etc.
Forget it, TalkSport, R5, and R4 will be 'run into the ground' without
any changes (other than reducing the power, and slowly shrinking the
present networks)
It's technically possible for TalkSport of R5 to take over the soon to
be shut down 1215 kHz transmitters at their present sites, but I'd think
unlikely. What's the point of improving reception on a platform you're
anxious to shut down !

Is there any scope for squeezing R5 onto FM? I was always under the
impression there wasn’t room for an additional national network, but in
Berwick you can get R1-4 plus Radio Scotland.

Radio Scotland (and RnG, Wales, Ulster, Cymru) all use either 92-95 (or
if R4 is using those, they use the local radio sub bands which for the
BBC are 94.5 to 96.1 and 103.5 to 104.9) Or vice versa.
As there is no English style BBC  local radio outside of England that's
how the BBC manage to get their 'national' stations to fit on FM (Plus a
number of Radio 3 FM transmitters in Wales were reallocated to Radio
Wales in 2018.)

Has this affected coverage of R3 in Wales or is the few people listen
to R3 in cars anyway and it should be okay in the home?

Well, it's available on DAB in most of the areas where it's gone from
FM. The Llangollen transmitter is the only high power site where Radio
Wales has replaced R3, and that has a lot of overlap with Holme Moss and
Sutton C. All the other high power transmitters in Wales (and quite a
number of relays) still carry R3 and Wales.

Post by Scott

Post by Mark Carver
So, there's no room for Radio 5 on FM. That said, BBC Local Radio is
being run down so much now, it would make sense for R5 to take over
their FM transmitters, and just have the local news as opt outs. A bit
like the old Home Service/R4 opt outs that were replaced by BBC Local
Radio. What goes around, comes around !

But R5 Live is a news and sport station. Does local radio not have
more in common with R2 (especially in Jeremy Vine mode)? In the old
days did local radio not broadcast R2 from 8 pm onwards? Local radio
could more logically be an optout from R2.

I would propose that BBC Local Radio ditches music, (the stuff they play
now is insipid crap and targets no one)
Therefore providing local news and sports opt outs on a national news
and sports network makes sense (to me)

[Scott]

On Sun, 8 Jan 2023 17:46:34 +0000, Mark Carver

Post by Mark Carver

Post by Scott
On Sun, 8 Jan 2023 17:16:02 +0000, Mark Carver

Post by Mark Carver

Post by Tweed

Post by Mark Carver

Post by Scott
I thought at the time they should have moved R5 Live 909 kHz to 648
kHz so they would have a lower frequency with greater propagation and
two frequencies (963 and 648) metres closer together to make retuning
easier.
I assume the reason for not doing this was cost and the same will
apply at TalkSport. .

Moving the frequencies of high power MF and LF more than a few kHz
involves lots of work on the aerial systems, and often physically
altering the height of the masts etc.
Forget it, TalkSport, R5, and R4 will be 'run into the ground' without
any changes (other than reducing the power, and slowly shrinking the
present networks)
It's technically possible for TalkSport of R5 to take over the soon to
be shut down 1215 kHz transmitters at their present sites, but I'd think
unlikely. What's the point of improving reception on a platform you're
anxious to shut down !

Is there any scope for squeezing R5 onto FM? I was always under the
impression there wasn’t room for an additional national network, but in
Berwick you can get R1-4 plus Radio Scotland.

Radio Scotland (and RnG, Wales, Ulster, Cymru) all use either 92-95 (or
if R4 is using those, they use the local radio sub bands which for the
BBC are 94.5 to 96.1 and 103.5 to 104.9) Or vice versa.
As there is no English style BBC  local radio outside of England that's
how the BBC manage to get their 'national' stations to fit on FM (Plus a
number of Radio 3 FM transmitters in Wales were reallocated to Radio
Wales in 2018.)

Has this affected coverage of R3 in Wales or is the few people listen
to R3 in cars anyway and it should be okay in the home?

Well, it's available on DAB in most of the areas where it's gone from
FM. The Llangollen transmitter is the only high power site where Radio
Wales has replaced R3, and that has a lot of overlap with Holme Moss and
Sutton C. All the other high power transmitters in Wales (and quite a
number of relays) still carry R3 and Wales.

Does this mean FM was over-engineered in the first place? Could they
not cut some R1/R2/R4 relays as well?

Post by Mark Carver

Post by Scott

Post by Mark Carver
So, there's no room for Radio 5 on FM. That said, BBC Local Radio is
being run down so much now, it would make sense for R5 to take over
their FM transmitters, and just have the local news as opt outs. A bit
like the old Home Service/R4 opt outs that were replaced by BBC Local
Radio. What goes around, comes around !

But R5 Live is a news and sport station. Does local radio not have
more in common with R2 (especially in Jeremy Vine mode)? In the old
days did local radio not broadcast R2 from 8 pm onwards? Local radio
could more logically be an optout from R2.

I would propose that BBC Local Radio ditches music, (the stuff they play
now is insipid crap and targets no one)
Therefore providing local news and sports opt outs on a national news
and sports network makes sense (to me)

That would be logical actually if you were going to merge R5 with BBC
local. Would there not not be an illogicality though in excluding the
most popular R5 programmes (ie, during highest audience times) from
new FM? Also R5 Live covers football nationally with times likely to
coincide with local matches.

[Mark Carver]

Post by Scott
On Sun, 8 Jan 2023 17:46:34 +0000, Mark Carver

Post by Mark Carver

Post by Scott
On Sun, 8 Jan 2023 17:16:02 +0000, Mark Carver

Post by Mark Carver

Post by Tweed

Post by Mark Carver

Post by Scott
I thought at the time they should have moved R5 Live 909 kHz to 648
kHz so they would have a lower frequency with greater propagation and
two frequencies (963 and 648) metres closer together to make retuning
easier.
I assume the reason for not doing this was cost and the same will
apply at TalkSport. .

Moving the frequencies of high power MF and LF more than a few kHz
involves lots of work on the aerial systems, and often physically
altering the height of the masts etc.
Forget it, TalkSport, R5, and R4 will be 'run into the ground' without
any changes (other than reducing the power, and slowly shrinking the
present networks)
It's technically possible for TalkSport of R5 to take over the soon to
be shut down 1215 kHz transmitters at their present sites, but I'd think
unlikely. What's the point of improving reception on a platform you're
anxious to shut down !

Is there any scope for squeezing R5 onto FM? I was always under the
impression there wasn’t room for an additional national network, but in
Berwick you can get R1-4 plus Radio Scotland.

Radio Scotland (and RnG, Wales, Ulster, Cymru) all use either 92-95 (or
if R4 is using those, they use the local radio sub bands which for the
BBC are 94.5 to 96.1 and 103.5 to 104.9) Or vice versa.
As there is no English style BBC  local radio outside of England that's
how the BBC manage to get their 'national' stations to fit on FM (Plus a
number of Radio 3 FM transmitters in Wales were reallocated to Radio
Wales in 2018.)

Has this affected coverage of R3 in Wales or is the few people listen
to R3 in cars anyway and it should be okay in the home?

Well, it's available on DAB in most of the areas where it's gone from
FM. The Llangollen transmitter is the only high power site where Radio
Wales has replaced R3, and that has a lot of overlap with Holme Moss and
Sutton C. All the other high power transmitters in Wales (and quite a
number of relays) still carry R3 and Wales.

Does this mean FM was over-engineered in the first place? Could they
not cut some R1/R2/R4 relays as well?

What would they do with the R1/2/4 relays if they did that ?

Post by Scott

Post by Mark Carver

Post by Scott

Post by Mark Carver
So, there's no room for Radio 5 on FM. That said, BBC Local Radio is
being run down so much now, it would make sense for R5 to take over
their FM transmitters, and just have the local news as opt outs. A bit
like the old Home Service/R4 opt outs that were replaced by BBC Local
Radio. What goes around, comes around !

But R5 Live is a news and sport station. Does local radio not have
more in common with R2 (especially in Jeremy Vine mode)? In the old
days did local radio not broadcast R2 from 8 pm onwards? Local radio
could more logically be an optout from R2.

I would propose that BBC Local Radio ditches music, (the stuff they play
now is insipid crap and targets no one)
Therefore providing local news and sports opt outs on a national news
and sports network makes sense (to me)

That would be logical actually if you were going to merge R5 with BBC
local. Would there not not be an illogicality though in excluding the
most popular R5 programmes (ie, during highest audience times) from
new FM? Also R5 Live covers football nationally with times likely to
coincide with local matches.

But vanilla national R5 would still be available to all on DAB, MW, and
your smart speaker (just as it is now)

[Scott]

On Sun, 8 Jan 2023 18:46:31 +0000, Mark Carver

Post by Mark Carver

Post by Scott
On Sun, 8 Jan 2023 17:46:34 +0000, Mark Carver

Post by Mark Carver

Post by Scott
On Sun, 8 Jan 2023 17:16:02 +0000, Mark Carver

Post by Mark Carver

Post by Tweed

Post by Mark Carver

Post by Scott
I thought at the time they should have moved R5 Live 909 kHz to 648
kHz so they would have a lower frequency with greater propagation and
two frequencies (963 and 648) metres closer together to make retuning
easier.
I assume the reason for not doing this was cost and the same will
apply at TalkSport. .

Moving the frequencies of high power MF and LF more than a few kHz
involves lots of work on the aerial systems, and often physically
altering the height of the masts etc.
Forget it, TalkSport, R5, and R4 will be 'run into the ground' without
any changes (other than reducing the power, and slowly shrinking the
present networks)
It's technically possible for TalkSport of R5 to take over the soon to
be shut down 1215 kHz transmitters at their present sites, but I'd think
unlikely. What's the point of improving reception on a platform you're
anxious to shut down !

Is there any scope for squeezing R5 onto FM? I was always under the
impression there wasn’t room for an additional national network, but in
Berwick you can get R1-4 plus Radio Scotland.

Radio Scotland (and RnG, Wales, Ulster, Cymru) all use either 92-95 (or
if R4 is using those, they use the local radio sub bands which for the
BBC are 94.5 to 96.1 and 103.5 to 104.9) Or vice versa.
As there is no English style BBC  local radio outside of England that's
how the BBC manage to get their 'national' stations to fit on FM (Plus a
number of Radio 3 FM transmitters in Wales were reallocated to Radio
Wales in 2018.)

Has this affected coverage of R3 in Wales or is the few people listen
to R3 in cars anyway and it should be okay in the home?

Well, it's available on DAB in most of the areas where it's gone from
FM. The Llangollen transmitter is the only high power site where Radio
Wales has replaced R3, and that has a lot of overlap with Holme Moss and
Sutton C. All the other high power transmitters in Wales (and quite a
number of relays) still carry R3 and Wales.

Does this mean FM was over-engineered in the first place? Could they
not cut some R1/R2/R4 relays as well?

What would they do with the R1/2/4 relays if they did that ?

Save electricity and cut maintenance costs and rental payments. I
thought this was the fate of analogue radio.

Post by Mark Carver

Post by Scott

Post by Mark Carver

Post by Scott

Post by Mark Carver
So, there's no room for Radio 5 on FM. That said, BBC Local Radio is
being run down so much now, it would make sense for R5 to take over
their FM transmitters, and just have the local news as opt outs. A bit
like the old Home Service/R4 opt outs that were replaced by BBC Local
Radio. What goes around, comes around !

But R5 Live is a news and sport station. Does local radio not have
more in common with R2 (especially in Jeremy Vine mode)? In the old
days did local radio not broadcast R2 from 8 pm onwards? Local radio
could more logically be an optout from R2.

I would propose that BBC Local Radio ditches music, (the stuff they play
now is insipid crap and targets no one)
Therefore providing local news and sports opt outs on a national news
and sports network makes sense (to me)

That would be logical actually if you were going to merge R5 with BBC
local. Would there not not be an illogicality though in excluding the
most popular R5 programmes (ie, during highest audience times) from
new FM? Also R5 Live covers football nationally with times likely to
coincide with local matches.

But vanilla national R5 would still be available to all on DAB, MW, and
your smart speaker (just as it is now)

I think the BBC have announced that the AM service is to close.

[MB]

Post by Scott
Does this mean FM was over-engineered in the first place? Could they
not cut some R1/R2/R4 relays as well?

Why?

Most are being used as feeds to other sites.

[MB]

Post by Scott
Does this mean FM was over-engineered in the first place? Could they
not cut some R1/R2/R4 relays as well?

Why is it over-engineered?

[Scott]

Post by MB

Post by Scott
Does this mean FM was over-engineered in the first place? Could they
not cut some R1/R2/R4 relays as well?

Why is it over-engineered?

Because R3 historically was the favoured channel so what is acceptable
for R3 must be good enough for R1, R2 and R4 :-)

[Woody]

Post by Mark Carver

Post by Scott
On Sun, 8 Jan 2023 17:16:02 +0000, Mark Carver

Post by Mark Carver

Post by Tweed

Post by Mark Carver

Post by Scott
I thought at the time they should have moved R5 Live 909 kHz to 648
kHz so they would have a lower frequency with greater propagation and
two frequencies (963 and 648) metres closer together to make retuning
easier.
I assume the reason for not doing this was cost and the same will
apply at TalkSport. .

Moving the frequencies of high power MF and LF more than a few kHz
involves lots of work on the aerial systems, and often physically
altering the height of the masts etc.
Forget it, TalkSport, R5, and R4 will be 'run into the ground' without
any changes (other than reducing the power, and slowly shrinking the
present networks)
It's technically possible for TalkSport of R5 to take over the soon to
be shut down 1215 kHz transmitters at their present sites, but I'd think
unlikely. What's the point of improving reception on a platform you're
anxious to shut down !

Is there any scope for squeezing R5 onto FM? I was always under the
impression there wasn’t room for an additional national network, but in
Berwick you can get R1-4 plus Radio Scotland.

Radio Scotland (and RnG, Wales, Ulster, Cymru) all use either 92-95 (or
if R4 is using those, they use the local radio sub bands which for the
BBC are 94.5 to 96.1 and 103.5 to 104.9) Or vice versa.
As there is no English style BBC  local radio outside of England that's
how the BBC manage to get their 'national' stations to fit on FM (Plus a
number of Radio 3 FM transmitters in Wales were reallocated to Radio
Wales in 2018.)

Has this affected coverage of R3 in Wales or is the few people listen
to R3 in cars anyway and it should be okay in the home?

Well, it's available on DAB in most of the areas where it's gone from
FM. The Llangollen transmitter is the only high power site where Radio
Wales has replaced R3, and that has a lot of overlap with Holme Moss and
Sutton C. All the other high power transmitters in Wales (and quite a
number of relays) still carry R3 and Wales.

Post by Scott

Post by Mark Carver
So, there's no room for Radio 5 on FM. That said, BBC Local Radio is
being run down so much now, it would make sense for R5 to take over
their FM transmitters, and just have the local news as opt outs. A bit
like the old Home Service/R4 opt outs that were replaced by BBC Local
Radio. What goes around, comes around !

But R5 Live is a news and sport station.  Does local radio not have
more in common with R2 (especially in Jeremy Vine mode)?  In the old
days did local radio not broadcast R2 from 8 pm onwards?  Local radio
could more logically be an optout from R2.

I would propose that BBC Local Radio ditches music, (the stuff they play
now is insipid crap and targets no one)
Therefore providing local news and sports opt outs on a national news
and sports network makes sense (to me)

Llangollen FM Tx - ah, I remember it well. Locally known as the
Ponderosa after the cafe at the top of the Horseshoe Pass where you
turned off up a track to get to the site. Once unable to get to the site
due to an ice field - when we went back in a hired Land Rover the ice
field turned out to be about 15ft wide and maybe 30yds long but you
still couldn't drive through it. Fortunately there is another track that
was passable.
Those were the days when Ambulance radio was on high band! Ahh.......

[Alexander]

Post by Woody
Llangollen FM Tx - ah, I remember it well. Locally known as the
Ponderosa after the cafe at the top of the Horseshoe Pass where you
turned off up a track to get to the site. Once unable to get to the site
due to an ice field - when we went back in a hired Land Rover the ice
field turned out to be about 15ft wide and maybe 30yds long but you
still couldn't drive through it. Fortunately there is another track that
was passable.
Those were the days when Ambulance radio was on high band! Ahh.......

Incidentally the Llangollen 104.3 FM transmission (BBC Cymru) is audible
over an enormously wide area, reaching deep into England also.

For years (I think a decade or more) its RDS ident said "BBCymru_"
which I think indicates a loss of main programme feed?

I'm guessing that nobody noticed...

[MB]

Post by Alexander
For years (I think a decade or more) its RDS ident said "BBCymru_"
which I think indicates a loss of main programme feed?

The most obvious PS would have been "BBC_CYMRU" but that has too many
characters, "BBCCYMRU" looks messy so I presume "BBCYMRU_" was decided
as a reasonable compromise.

[Max Demian]

Post by MB

Post by Alexander
For years (I think a decade or more) its RDS ident said "BBCymru_"
which I think indicates a loss of main programme feed?

The most obvious PS would have been "BBC_CYMRU" but that has too many
characters, "BBCCYMRU" looks messy so I presume "BBCYMRU_" was decided
as a reasonable compromise.

Why the terminating _? RDS names can have spaces, even between words.

[MB]

Post by Max Demian
Why the terminating _? RDS names can have spaces, even between words.

I think the "_" just displays as a space on the car radio. Perhaps PS
has to be eight characters long - the RDS specification is online.

[John Williamson]

Post by MB

Post by Max Demian
Why the terminating _? RDS names can have spaces, even between words.

I think the "_" just displays as a space on the car radio. Perhaps PS
has to be eight characters long - the RDS specification is online.

I have seen RDS used to transmit the name and title of the current song
and even the phone number of the station in places outside the UK. The
radio display has to be at least 8 characters, and longer strings are
displayed by scrolling on most sets I've used.

On in car systems with a decent display, more than just the 8 characters
are displayed, but I've never bothered checking whether that is from a
local look up table or transmitted. When thinking about setting up a
restricted licence station, I never got that far into the transmitter
details.

[MB]

Post by John Williamson
I have seen RDS used to transmit the name and title of the current song
and even the phone number of the station in places outside the UK. The
radio display has to be at least 8 characters, and longer strings are
displayed by scrolling on most sets I've used.
On in car systems with a decent display, more than just the 8 characters
are displayed, but I've never bothered checking whether that is from a
local look up table or transmitted. When thinking about setting up a
restricted licence station, I never got that far into the transmitter
details.

Scrolling RDS displays have been discussed before and I think that if
not actually banned, they are discouraged because of being distracting
to drivers.

[Mark Carver]

Post by MB

Post by John Williamson
I have seen RDS used to transmit the name and title of the current song
and even the phone number of the station in places outside the UK. The
radio display has to be at least 8 characters, and longer strings are
displayed by scrolling on most sets I've used.
On in car systems with a decent display, more than just the 8 characters
are displayed, but I've never bothered checking whether that is from a
local look up table or transmitted. When thinking about setting up a
restricted licence station, I never got that far into the transmitter
details.

Scrolling RDS displays have been discussed before and I think that if
not actually banned, they are discouraged because of being distracting
to drivers.

That ship has sailed on modern cars, there's sensory overload of
dashboard distractions now !  (Mostly with software written by someone
who has clearly never driven a vehicle)

[MB]

Post by Mark Carver
That ship has sailed on modern cars, there's sensory overload of
dashboard distractions now !  (Mostly with software written by someone
who has clearly never driven a vehicle)

When I changed my car, it took me some time to work out to switch on and
set the speed limiter. Not helped by being told to operate a switch
that was called something different from what it was called in the handbook!

Many years ago, when RDS was first implemented, I used to wonder if many
radios had been designed by someone in the Far East who had never
actually used RDS.

[Alexander]

Post by Max Demian

Post by MB

Post by Alexander
For years (I think a decade or more) its RDS ident said "BBCymru_"
which I think indicates a loss of main programme feed?

The most obvious PS would have been "BBC_CYMRU" but that has too many
characters, "BBCCYMRU" looks messy so I presume "BBCYMRU_" was decided
as a reasonable compromise.

Why the terminating _? RDS names can have spaces, even between words.

On BBC FM it's normally to indicate loss of main programme feed
and use of a backup.

[MB]

Post by Alexander
On BBC FM it's normally to indicate loss of main programme feed
and use of a backup.

Yes I know but was not sure if the "_" is displayed as an underscore as
not seen it for many years.

[Alexander]

Post by Mark Carver
I would propose that BBC Local Radio ditches music, (the stuff they play
now is insipid crap and targets no one)
Therefore providing local news and sports opt outs on a national news
and sports network makes sense (to me)

Interestingly some BBC "Locals" only adopted the insipid mainstream pop
music format quite recently, when the "local" commercial stations became
relays of Hits Radio / GHR, under the guise of filling some alleged void
I believe.

In doing so, they exposed the fact that whatever BBC "Local" programming
had existed beforehand was evidently considered unimportant and missed
by no-one!

I too had thought of the idea of merging them with R5 for basically a
national R5 service with local opt-outs. Then switch off AM.
Seems to make sense.

Or better still just sell them off and impose a PSB obligation to provide
the local sports coverage on whoever buys them.


Speaking of GHR, the former 'Signal 1' 96.4 FM frequency in Cheshire was
today reassigned to carry GHR, but (at time of posting) the L and R
stereo channels are 180 degrees out of phase, so when listening in mono
you hear only the stereo difference signal... oops :-)

[Brian Gregory]

Post by Alexander
Speaking of GHR, the former 'Signal 1' 96.4 FM frequency in Cheshire was
today reassigned to carry GHR, but (at time of posting) the L and R
stereo channels are 180 degrees out of phase, so when listening in mono
you hear only the stereo difference signal... oops :-)

So presumably much of the music gets transformed into a weird karaoke
version without any vocals! (on a mono radio)

-

I have noticed some similar screw-up with the TV sound on More4 late at
night recently. Makes it horrible to listen to on my TV's built in
speakers. It screws with my ability to hear where sounds are coming from
if I listen to it for any length of time.

It's the same screw-up on both Freeview and satellite, and present both
during adverts and during programs.

Weird.

[Alexander]

Post by Brian Gregory

Post by Alexander
Speaking of GHR, the former 'Signal 1' 96.4 FM frequency in Cheshire was
today reassigned to carry GHR, but (at time of posting) the L and R
stereo channels are 180 degrees out of phase, so when listening in mono
you hear only the stereo difference signal... oops :-)

So presumably much of the music gets transformed into a weird karaoke
version without any vocals! (on a mono radio)

It's been fixed now, but yes, during the fault most vocals disappeared,
as did DJ and Ad voiceovers, when listening in mono.

Also of note: I've had to rotate my antenna 90 degrees to receive the
signal, vs the 'Signal 1' broadcast that had been using the same 96.4
frequency until yesterday, so I assume they've changed something,
perhaps to provide an altered coverage area for the new service?

[Brian Gregory]

Post by Alexander

Post by Brian Gregory

Post by Alexander
Speaking of GHR, the former 'Signal 1' 96.4 FM frequency in Cheshire was
today reassigned to carry GHR, but (at time of posting) the L and R
stereo channels are 180 degrees out of phase, so when listening in mono
you hear only the stereo difference signal... oops :-)

So presumably much of the music gets transformed into a weird karaoke
version without any vocals! (on a mono radio)

It's been fixed now, but yes, during the fault most vocals disappeared,
as did DJ and Ad voiceovers, when listening in mono.
Also of note: I've had to rotate my antenna 90 degrees to receive the
signal, vs the 'Signal 1' broadcast that had been using the same 96.4
frequency until yesterday, so I assume they've changed something,
perhaps to provide an altered coverage area for the new service?

Maybe they changed from horizontal or "mixed" polarization to vertical
or something like that?

[Brian Gregory]

Post by Brian Gregory
I have noticed some similar screw-up with the TV sound on More4 late at
night recently. Makes it horrible to listen to on my TV's built in
speakers. It screws with my ability to hear where sounds are coming from
if I listen to it for any length of time.
It's the same screw-up on both Freeview and satellite, and present both
during adverts and during programs.
Weird.

They're doing it again tonight.
The sound for "8 out of 10 cats do countdown" sounds bizarre, like it's
not coming from the TV at all.

Come to think of it, it was always "8 out of 10 cats do countdown" but
one time they fixed it half way though.

[Tweed]

Post by Scott
On Sun, 8 Jan 2023 17:16:02 +0000, Mark Carver

Post by Mark Carver

Post by Tweed

Post by Mark Carver

Post by Scott
I thought at the time they should have moved R5 Live 909 kHz to 648
kHz so they would have a lower frequency with greater propagation and
two frequencies (963 and 648) metres closer together to make retuning
easier.
I assume the reason for not doing this was cost and the same will
apply at TalkSport. .

Moving the frequencies of high power MF and LF more than a few kHz
involves lots of work on the aerial systems, and often physically
altering the height of the masts etc.
Forget it, TalkSport, R5, and R4 will be 'run into the ground' without
any changes (other than reducing the power, and slowly shrinking the
present networks)
It's technically possible for TalkSport of R5 to take over the soon to
be shut down 1215 kHz transmitters at their present sites, but I'd think
unlikely. What's the point of improving reception on a platform you're
anxious to shut down !

Is there any scope for squeezing R5 onto FM? I was always under the
impression there wasn’t room for an additional national network, but in
Berwick you can get R1-4 plus Radio Scotland.

Radio Scotland (and RnG, Wales, Ulster, Cymru) all use either 92-95 (or
if R4 is using those, they use the local radio sub bands which for the
BBC are 94.5 to 96.1 and 103.5 to 104.9) Or vice versa.
As there is no English style BBC  local radio outside of England that's
how the BBC manage to get their 'national' stations to fit on FM (Plus a
number of Radio 3 FM transmitters in Wales were reallocated to Radio
Wales in 2018.)

Has this affected coverage of R3 in Wales or is the few people listen
to R3 in cars anyway and it should be okay in the home?

Few people listed to Radio 3 anywhere. It is even beaten by Radio 4 extra
(threatened with closure)

https://www.statista.com/statistics/290490/uk-bbc-radio-stations-ranked-by-listeners-reached/

[MB]

Post by Tweed
Few people listed to Radio 3 anywhere. It is even beaten by Radio 4 extra
(threatened with closure)

It was well known for Radio 3 being found off on small sites with no
monitoring but not having being reported.

MANY years ago when we were line fed, I noticed some crosstalk on Radio
3. I had a listen after close down and worked out that it was TV sound.
I queried it but of course no one back down the distribution chain
could hear it. I think the only listener complaint came from the West
coast of Skye.

It was eventually found to have got into the whole distribution network
around Holme Moss I think and everywhere North of there affected.

[MB]

Post by Tweed
Is there any scope for squeezing R5 onto FM? I was always under the
impression there wasn’t room for an additional national network, but in
Berwick you can get R1-4 plus Radio Scotland.

Why when it is on DAB?

[Scott]

Post by MB

Post by Tweed
Is there any scope for squeezing R5 onto FM? I was always under the
impression there wasn’t room for an additional national network, but in
Berwick you can get R1-4 plus Radio Scotland.

Why when it is on DAB?

Because DAB wasn't invented when the decision was made to add R4 to
the Scottish FM transmitters. I understand this was to provide night
time coverage for both R4 and Radio Scotland, allowing the two to be
fully separated (Radio Scotland carried R4 programmes in the
evenings).

[MB]

Post by Scott
Because DAB wasn't invented when the decision was made to add R4 to
the Scottish FM transmitters. I understand this was to provide night
time coverage for both R4 and Radio Scotland, allowing the two to be
fully separated (Radio Scotland carried R4 programmes in the
evenings).

Much of the Highlands and Islands had no coverage for Radio 1 and Radio
4 until many sites were re-engineered with all six services.

As I noted a few days ago, the H&I were served on VHF FM when most of
the rest of the country just had the main stations so sites had rather
elderly equipment like the VRFM and VIFM (I think those were the names -
long time ago, probably EP7/2 and EP7/5 but guessing).

The VRFM was mainly valved with just Germanium transistors in the
oscillator which was in big vacuum 'flask'. I think the VIFM was the
first generation solid state VHF FM transposer with 'bookshelf' modules.

So it was a big improvement to have all these replaced with what was
then the current VHF FM transmitter - they moved from transposers to
receiver + transmitter. Some were installed with just the original
three services then Radio nan Gaidheal was added as coverage was
extended from the original coverage of just the Gaeltacht.

[Scott]

Post by MB

Post by Scott
Because DAB wasn't invented when the decision was made to add R4 to
the Scottish FM transmitters. I understand this was to provide night
time coverage for both R4 and Radio Scotland, allowing the two to be
fully separated (Radio Scotland carried R4 programmes in the
evenings).

Much of the Highlands and Islands had no coverage for Radio 1 and Radio
4 until many sites were re-engineered with all six services.
As I noted a few days ago, the H&I were served on VHF FM when most of
the rest of the country just had the main stations so sites had rather
elderly equipment like the VRFM and VIFM (I think those were the names -
long time ago, probably EP7/2 and EP7/5 but guessing).

You did mention this before but what stations did H&I receive on FM
other than the 'main stations'? Are you thinking of Radio Orkney and
Radio Shetland, which I understand were only opt-outs from Radio
Scotland using the same frequency? The R1 rollout started in London
AIR then extended to main transmitters (each opened by a different
DJ). I thought the first transmitter in Scotland to receive R4 FM was
Blackhill (I remember because the frequency was the same as Capital
Radio in London).

Post by MB
The VRFM was mainly valved with just Germanium transistors in the
oscillator which was in big vacuum 'flask'. I think the VIFM was the
first generation solid state VHF FM transposer with 'bookshelf' modules.
So it was a big improvement to have all these replaced with what was
then the current VHF FM transmitter - they moved from transposers to
receiver + transmitter. Some were installed with just the original
three services then Radio nan Gaidheal was added as coverage was
extended from the original coverage of just the Gaeltacht.

[MB]

Post by Scott
You did mention this before but what stations did H&I receive on FM
other than the 'main stations'? Are you thinking of Radio Orkney and
Radio Shetland, which I understand were only opt-outs from Radio
Scotland using the same frequency? The R1 rollout started in London
AIR then extended to main transmitters (each opened by a different
DJ). I thought the first transmitter in Scotland to receive R4 FM was
Blackhill (I remember because the frequency was the same as Capital
Radio in London).

Originally Light, Third, (Scottish) Home Service

Became Radio 2, Radio 3 and Radio Scotland. In the Highlands for a time
Radio Scotland was branded Radio Highland but that became just an opt
out for a local news bulletin once a day I think.

Radio 1 and Radio 4 in the Highland came long after the central belt.

Many sites with previously no VHF FM radio had it added though I think
Radio 1 and Radio 4 often were added later. Nearly all the smaller ones
relied on an off-air signal so could not have started before the local
main stations.

[Scott]

Post by MB

Post by Scott
You did mention this before but what stations did H&I receive on FM
other than the 'main stations'? Are you thinking of Radio Orkney and
Radio Shetland, which I understand were only opt-outs from Radio
Scotland using the same frequency? The R1 rollout started in London
AIR then extended to main transmitters (each opened by a different
DJ). I thought the first transmitter in Scotland to receive R4 FM was
Blackhill (I remember because the frequency was the same as Capital
Radio in London).

Originally Light, Third, (Scottish) Home Service
Became Radio 2, Radio 3 and Radio Scotland. In the Highlands for a time
Radio Scotland was branded Radio Highland but that became just an opt
out for a local news bulletin once a day I think.
Radio 1 and Radio 4 in the Highland came long after the central belt.
Many sites with previously no VHF FM radio had it added though I think
Radio 1 and Radio 4 often were added later. Nearly all the smaller ones
relied on an off-air signal so could not have started before the local
main stations.

I am genuinely puzzled as to what you mean by 'the H&I were served on
VHF FM when most of the rest of the country just had the main
stations'.

I think the opposite is true - 'The H&I were not served on VHF FM when
most of the rest of the country had the main stations'.

[MB]

Post by Scott
Because DAB wasn't invented when the decision was made to add R4 to
the Scottish FM transmitters. I understand this was to provide night
time coverage for both R4 and Radio Scotland, allowing the two to be
fully separated (Radio Scotland carried R4 programmes in the
evenings).

I think it was more a case of large areas of Scotland had no Radio 1 and
Radio 4 coverage. Nearly all the sites already had VHF FM which would
have included Radio Scotland (day and night). They had originally
Light, Third and Scottish Home Service (which became Radio Scotland).

[Tweed]

Post by MB

Post by Tweed
Is there any scope for squeezing R5 onto FM? I was always under the
impression there wasn’t room for an additional national network, but in
Berwick you can get R1-4 plus Radio Scotland.

Why when it is on DAB?

Lots of cars don’t have DAB radios still. But I guess most will as the
older vehicles head to the scrap heap. Is DAB standard in new cars, or
still a premium option?

[MB]

Post by Tweed
Lots of cars don’t have DAB radios still. But I guess most will as the
older vehicles head to the scrap heap. Is DAB standard in new cars, or
still a premium option?

It seems to be standard on just about all new cars.

[Liz Tuddenham]

Post by MB

Post by Tweed
Lots of cars don’t have DAB radios still. But I guess most will as the
older vehicles head to the scrap heap. Is DAB standard in new cars, or
still a premium option?

It seems to be standard on just about all new cars.

When I got my van (a 2011 model) it had been retro-fitted with the
latest top-of-the-range car radio. The thing was menu-driven and had no
controls that could be operated by feel; the panel lamps were so bright
they interfered with night vision. I decided it was so dangerous that I
removed it and chucked it in the back of the old van I was selling, as a
'present' to anyone daft enough to try to use it.

How anything like that could be allowed in a vehicle I fail to
understand; it was almost as dangerous as having a television screen
where the driver could see it.

I then found that the loudspeakers had been mounted on moulded-in
standoff pillars that left a large gap between them and the panels they
'squirted' through. After fitting a replacement radio (an old Philips
with proper controls, FM + AM medium and long wave and even a cassette
slot), I cut off the pillars and restored the missing bass.

[Andy Burns]

Post by Tweed
Lots of cars don’t have DAB radios still.
It seems to be standard on just about all new cars.

I had to spec it on my 2011 car, it came as standard on the 2017 replacement.

[Alexander]

Post by Mark Carver
It's technically possible for TalkSport of R5 to take over the soon to
be shut down 1215 kHz transmitters at their present sites, but I'd think
unlikely. What's the point of improving reception on a platform you're
anxious to shut down !

Well it would be a cheap and easy switch, was the idea,
since the transmitters and antennals are already in place.
So you could have much more geographical distance
between transmitters operating on a given frequency,
compared to the current arrangements.

[Scott]

On Sun, 08 Jan 2023 16:05:57 +0000, Scott

Post by Scott

Post by Alexander

Post by Andy Burns

Bauer are to shut down the MW network on 1215 kHz (aka 247m) used by Absolute
Radio on Jan 23rd
The end of another era !

How long for TalkSport on 275/285?

At sites from which both TalkSport and Absolute 1215 are transmitted,
perhaps they should move some of the TalkSport broadcasts over to the
1215 frequency.
Having fewer transmitters operating nationally on the same frequency
would, I presume, lessen the associated reception problems for listeners
in fringe areas, especially in TalkSport's case, since nobody even
bothers to synchronise the feeds to the transmitters most of the time,
so multiple echoes can be heard in the background.

I thought at the time they should have moved R5 Live 909 kHz to 648
kHz so they would have a lower frequency with greater propagation and
two frequencies (963 and 648) metres closer together to make retuning
easier.

Sorry - this should read 693 and 648.

[Brian Gaff]

I'd not have thought that, but to be honest I have never quite got what
Absolutes target audience is. Its not quite anything. Does this mean the
other mw absolutes are going, and will we soon lose the global stations as
well, maybe?
I'm not sure about burning your bridges like this. Does this mean
Brookmans park will soon be houses. I have fond memories of visiting that
place in the valve water cooled days.
Brian
--
--:
This newsgroup posting comes to you directly from...
The Sofa of Brian Gaff...
***@blueyonder.co.uk
Blind user, so no pictures please
Note this Signature is meaningless.!

Post by Mark Carver
Bauer are to shut down the MW network on 1215 kHz (aka 247m) used by
Absolute Radio on Jan 23rd
The end of another era !
https://planetradio.co.uk/absolute-radio/music/news/how-you-listen-to-absolute-radio-is-changing/
Almost certainly the huge electricity bill, for the tiny amount of
listeners is the reason.

[Alexander]

For those who may have missed it, they gave the frequency a memorable
send-off, with archive audio clips covering its 70+ year history.

[Mark Carver]

Post by Alexander
For those who may have missed it, they gave the frequency a memorable
send-off, with archive audio clips covering its 70+ year history.
http://youtu.be/OuBFscgMBHU

It was excellent, right back to '247m' being the MW 'fill in' service
for The Light Programme.

Nicely done.

[Scott]

On Sun, 22 Jan 2023 14:37:52 +0000, Mark Carver

Post by Mark Carver

Post by Alexander
For those who may have missed it, they gave the frequency a memorable
send-off, with archive audio clips covering its 70+ year history.
http://youtu.be/OuBFscgMBHU

It was excellent, right back to '247m' being the MW 'fill in' service
for The Light Programme.
Nicely done.

Yes, it was excellent. Will this start a trend for tributes as other
frequencies shut down? 198 kHz should be interesting.

[Scott]

On Sun, 22 Jan 2023 15:14:27 +0000, Scott
<***@gefion.myzen.co.uk> wrote:

PS 5 Live will be interesting as they will have to make two!

[Mark Carver]

Post by Scott
On Sun, 22 Jan 2023 15:14:27 +0000, Scott
PS 5 Live will be interesting as they will have to make two!

I don't think the BBC are terribly interested in their own engineering
heritage sadly.

Talk Sport might do something the mark the history of 275 and 285 when
the time comes, but again two differing histories

[Scott]

On Sun, 22 Jan 2023 15:23:38 +0000, Mark Carver

Post by Mark Carver

Post by Scott
On Sun, 22 Jan 2023 15:14:27 +0000, Scott
PS 5 Live will be interesting as they will have to make two!

I don't think the BBC are terribly interested in their own engineering
heritage sadly.
Talk Sport might do something the mark the history of 275 and 285 when
the time comes, but again two differing histories

What did they do when VHF television closed? I think something
happened.

[John Williamson]

Post by Scott
What did they do when VHF television closed? I think something
happened.

As shown on 625 lines BBC1 on the night. Some interesting style
reminders for us now, then, an announcement at 03:37.

[Scott]

On Sun, 22 Jan 2023 16:25:58 +0000, John Williamson

Post by John Williamson

Post by Scott
What did they do when VHF television closed? I think something
happened.

As shown on 625 lines BBC1 on the night. Some interesting style
reminders for us now, then, an announcement at 03:37.
http://youtu.be/ZHsxmt351Xw

Was the system 405 lines in 1936? I thought it started at much lower
resolution. .

[Mark Carver]

Post by Scott
On Sun, 22 Jan 2023 16:25:58 +0000, John Williamson

Post by John Williamson

Post by Scott
What did they do when VHF television closed? I think something
happened.

As shown on 625 lines BBC1 on the night. Some interesting style
reminders for us now, then, an announcement at 03:37.
http://youtu.be/ZHsxmt351Xw

Was the system 405 lines in 1936? I thought it started at much lower
resolution. .

No, 405 lines from 1936. There were lower resolutions earlier than that
as experiential services only.

[Scott]

On Sun, 22 Jan 2023 16:38:14 +0000, Mark Carver

Post by Mark Carver

Post by Scott
On Sun, 22 Jan 2023 16:25:58 +0000, John Williamson

Post by John Williamson

Post by Scott
What did they do when VHF television closed? I think something
happened.

As shown on 625 lines BBC1 on the night. Some interesting style
reminders for us now, then, an announcement at 03:37.
http://youtu.be/ZHsxmt351Xw

Was the system 405 lines in 1936? I thought it started at much lower
resolution. .

No, 405 lines from 1936. There were lower resolutions earlier than that
as experiential services only.

Thanks. I was confused. I thought it was the experimental service
that started in 1936.

[Max Demian]

Post by Scott
On Sun, 22 Jan 2023 16:38:14 +0000, Mark Carver

Post by Mark Carver

Post by Scott
On Sun, 22 Jan 2023 16:25:58 +0000, John Williamson

Post by John Williamson

Post by Scott
What did they do when VHF television closed? I think something
happened.

As shown on 625 lines BBC1 on the night. Some interesting style
reminders for us now, then, an announcement at 03:37.
http://youtu.be/ZHsxmt351Xw

Was the system 405 lines in 1936? I thought it started at much lower
resolution. .

No, 405 lines from 1936. There were lower resolutions earlier than that
as experiential services only.

Thanks. I was confused. I thought it was the experimental service
that started in 1936.

There was Baird's 240 line service alternating with the 405 line, but
Baird's side of the "experiment" failed.

[Tweed]

Post by Scott
On Sun, 22 Jan 2023 16:38:14 +0000, Mark Carver

Post by Mark Carver

Post by Scott
On Sun, 22 Jan 2023 16:25:58 +0000, John Williamson

Post by John Williamson

Post by Scott
What did they do when VHF television closed? I think something
happened.

As shown on 625 lines BBC1 on the night. Some interesting style
reminders for us now, then, an announcement at 03:37.
http://youtu.be/ZHsxmt351Xw

Was the system 405 lines in 1936? I thought it started at much lower
resolution. .

No, 405 lines from 1936. There were lower resolutions earlier than that
as experiential services only.

Thanks. I was confused. I thought it was the experimental service
that started in 1936.

There’s a useful timeline here

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Timeline_of_the_BBC_Television_Service

[tony sayer]

Post by Scott
On Sun, 22 Jan 2023 16:38:14 +0000, Mark Carver

Post by Mark Carver

Post by Scott
On Sun, 22 Jan 2023 16:25:58 +0000, John Williamson

Post by John Williamson

Post by Scott
What did they do when VHF television closed? I think something
happened.

As shown on 625 lines BBC1 on the night. Some interesting style
reminders for us now, then, an announcement at 03:37.
http://youtu.be/ZHsxmt351Xw

Was the system 405 lines in 1936? I thought it started at much lower
resolution. .

No, 405 lines from 1936. There were lower resolutions earlier than that
as experiential services only.

Thanks. I was confused. I thought it was the experimental service
that started in 1936.

Have a look at this delightful film!..

[MB]

Post by Scott
Thanks. I was confused. I thought it was the experimental service
that started in 1936.

The reason that the BBC TV is called the 'first' is because it was the
first regular scheduled service. There had been experimental services
in various countries.

[Scott]

On Sun, 22 Jan 2023 16:25:58 +0000, John Williamson

Post by John Williamson

Post by Scott
What did they do when VHF television closed? I think something
happened.

As shown on 625 lines BBC1 on the night. Some interesting style
reminders for us now, then, an announcement at 03:37.
http://youtu.be/ZHsxmt351Xw

End of BBC 2 analogue in London:

[Mark Carver]

Post by Scott
On Sun, 22 Jan 2023 16:25:58 +0000, John Williamson

Post by John Williamson

Post by Scott
What did they do when VHF television closed? I think something
happened.

As shown on 625 lines BBC1 on the night. Some interesting style
reminders for us now, then, an announcement at 03:37.
http://youtu.be/ZHsxmt351Xw

http://youtu.be/kIJXiv9jS8s

BBC Wales did it with far more style for Wenvoe

[tony sayer]

Post by Mark Carver

Post by Scott
On Sun, 22 Jan 2023 16:25:58 +0000, John Williamson

Post by John Williamson

Post by Scott
What did they do when VHF television closed? I think something
happened.

As shown on 625 lines BBC1 on the night. Some interesting style
reminders for us now, then, an announcement at 03:37.
http://youtu.be/ZHsxmt351Xw

http://youtu.be/kIJXiv9jS8s

BBC Wales did it with far more style for Wenvoe
http://youtu.be/Er4UyIqC2s4

No sheep were harmed during the making of this film;!!..

[John Williamson]

Post by Scott
On Sun, 22 Jan 2023 16:25:58 +0000, John Williamson

Post by John Williamson

Post by Scott
What did they do when VHF television closed? I think something
happened.

As shown on 625 lines BBC1 on the night. Some interesting style
reminders for us now, then, an announcement at 03:37.
http://youtu.be/ZHsxmt351Xw

http://youtu.be/kIJXiv9jS8s

They didn't mess about, did they?

[MB]

Post by Scott
What did they do when VHF television closed? I think something
happened.

I think they had a caption superimposed on the screen before switch off.

I don't remember any big fuss, it was just turned off in stages.

[MB]

Post by Mark Carver
I don't think the BBC are terribly interested in their own engineering
heritage sadly.

As with the original 2LO which sat at Daventry gathering dust. The BBC
only got interested when they realised that they no longer owned it!