Long wave

[Brian Gaff]

Now that the Irish are leaving too, how long can the BBC keep going? I
noticed some weaker stations sounding distinctly Russian and in one case
Arabic, but why is LW no longer a good idea? Is it the large sizes of
aerials, or the terrible interference we all suffer from from various
devices these days. I guess if there was a market for it still, radios would
still come with the band and transmitter makers would be doing more than
fixing broken bits of old kit.
Brian

[John Williamson]

The only reason we are keeping our Long Wave station going is because
the carrier is modulated to carry timing information for the surviving
older off peak metering systems, and as soon as they are replaced by
more modern systems, the transmitters will be turned off, partly due to
the massive cost of the power they use. You can buy a solid state
replacement for the current valve transmitters almost off the shelf. It
would be a modular design, and rather more efficient than the current
system. The makers are, if I remember correctly, German.

The benefit of long wave was the large area that could be covered by a
single transmitter. A downside was the low and variable sound quality.
Radios were cheap and easy to make, and a long wire antenna with a diode
could directly power a crystal earpiece in most parts of England

The range made it easy to cover even a large country, but also made
co-channel interference with the neighbours' stations a problem once the
service started spreading worldwide.

Medium wave reduced the coverage area per transmitter, so the co-channel
problem was reduced, though the bandwidth and distortion problems
remained. It also suffered from skip interference, where your station
would appear strongly three countries away with excellent reception for
a few hours at a time, but not in the countries between you and there,
and all your listeners would moan about not being able to hear you over
some foreign gabble. Radio sets were still cheap and easy to make, even
the crystal sets still sort of worked.

Then FM sets became cheap enough for the mass market, and FM line of
sight offered much better sound quality and let local radio become a
real thing. More recently, DAB is getting cheaper, and is taking over
the FM market.

Russia has a very large area to cover, and is, overall, a poor country
with limited facilities, so it makes sense for them to put a *big* long
wave transmitter somewhere near the middle, rather than a network of
smaller ones in each town. They are closing down their Medium Wave
stations, probably replacing them with FM whihc can't be received
outside their line of sight.

Because of the coverage pattern, Russia also uses a lot of short wave
band broadcasting, though they are replacing a lot of the official,
coded stuff with satellites.

Post by Brian Gaff
Now that the Irish are leaving too, how long can the BBC keep going? I
noticed some weaker stations sounding distinctly Russian and in one case
Arabic, but why is LW no longer a good idea? Is it the large sizes of
aerials, or the terrible interference we all suffer from from various
devices these days. I guess if there was a market for it still, radios would
still come with the band and transmitter makers would be doing more than
fixing broken bits of old kit.
Brian

[Woody]

Post by John Williamson
The only reason we are keeping our Long Wave station going is because
the carrier is modulated to carry timing information for the surviving
older off peak metering systems, and as soon as they are replaced by
more modern systems, the transmitters will be turned off, partly due to
the massive cost of the power they use. You can buy a solid state
replacement for the current valve transmitters almost off the shelf. It
would be a modular design, and rather more efficient than the current
system. The makers are, if I remember correctly, German.
The benefit of long wave was the large area that could be covered by a
single transmitter. A downside was the low and variable sound quality.
Radios were cheap and easy to make, and a long wire antenna with a diode
could directly power a crystal earpiece in most parts of England
The range made it easy to cover even a large country, but also made
co-channel interference with the neighbours' stations a problem once the
service started spreading worldwide.
Medium wave reduced the coverage area per transmitter, so the co-channel
problem was reduced, though the bandwidth and distortion problems
remained. It also suffered from skip interference, where your station
would appear strongly three countries away with excellent reception for
a few hours at a time, but not in the countries between you and there,
and all your listeners would moan about not being able to hear you over
some foreign gabble. Radio sets were still cheap and easy to make, even
the crystal sets still sort of worked.
Then FM sets became cheap enough for the mass market, and FM line of
sight offered much better sound quality and let local radio become a
real thing. More recently, DAB is getting cheaper, and is taking over
the FM market.
Russia has a very large area to cover, and is, overall, a poor country
with limited facilities, so it makes sense for them to put a *big* long
wave transmitter somewhere near the middle, rather than a network of
smaller ones in each town. They are closing down their Medium Wave
stations, probably replacing them with FM whihc can't be received
outside their line of sight.
Because of the coverage pattern, Russia also uses a lot of short wave
band broadcasting, though they are replacing a lot of the official,
coded stuff with satellites.

They are Nautel and manufactured in Canada.

[John Williamson]

Post by Woody

Post by John Williamson
The only reason we are keeping our Long Wave station going is because
the carrier is modulated to carry timing information for the surviving
older off peak metering systems, and as soon as they are replaced by
more modern systems, the transmitters will be turned off, partly due
to the massive cost of the power they use. You can buy a solid state
replacement for the current valve transmitters almost off the shelf.
It would be a modular design, and rather more efficient than the
current system. The makers are, if I remember correctly, German.

They are Nautel and manufactured in Canada.

Thanks for the correction.

[Brian Gaff]

I was going to say, it cannot be that its hard to make an LW transmitter,
more to do with the size of an efficient aerial.
Brian
--
--:
This newsgroup posting comes to you directly from...
The Sofa of Brian Gaff...
***@blueyonder.co.uk
Blind user, so no pictures please
Note this Signature is meaningless.!

Post by John Williamson

Post by Woody

Post by John Williamson
The only reason we are keeping our Long Wave station going is because
the carrier is modulated to carry timing information for the surviving
older off peak metering systems, and as soon as they are replaced by
more modern systems, the transmitters will be turned off, partly due
to the massive cost of the power they use. You can buy a solid state
replacement for the current valve transmitters almost off the shelf.
It would be a modular design, and rather more efficient than the
current system. The makers are, if I remember correctly, German.

They are Nautel and manufactured in Canada.

Thanks for the correction.
--
Tciao for Now!
John.

[John Williamson]

You just need a biggish field, and you can make a profit by using the
land for grazing, growing crops, or, nowadays, by installing solar
panels to power the transmitter with a bit left over to sell.

When the Daventry antenna farm was still in use, I kept seeing animals
in the grounds when I drove past.

The expensive bit is inside the buildings.

Post by Brian Gaff
I was going to say, it cannot be that its hard to make an LW transmitter,
more to do with the size of an efficient aerial.
Brian

[Mark Carver]

Post by John Williamson
You just need a biggish field, and you can make a profit by using the
land for grazing, growing crops, or, nowadays, by installing solar
panels to power the transmitter with a bit left over to sell.
When the Daventry antenna farm was still in use, I kept seeing animals
in the grounds when I drove past.
The expensive bit is inside the buildings.

The expensive bit now is powering the things inside the buildings.
That's why Absolute Radio closed their transmitters, and why TalkSport's
are reportedly running at -6dB

If you assume Droitwich's 198 kHz is a 100% efficient (it won't be), and
the antenna system gain is 0dB (it might be), then that's 400kW. Assume
33p/unit then that's 132 quid an hour., 3.1k per day, 1.1 million quid a
year. Yea, OK solar panels would help a bit, but if you think that's
sustainable in this day and age (with one man and his dog left
listening) think again.

[Tweed]

Post by Mark Carver

Post by John Williamson
You just need a biggish field, and you can make a profit by using the
land for grazing, growing crops, or, nowadays, by installing solar
panels to power the transmitter with a bit left over to sell.
When the Daventry antenna farm was still in use, I kept seeing animals
in the grounds when I drove past.
The expensive bit is inside the buildings.

The expensive bit now is powering the things inside the buildings.
That's why Absolute Radio closed their transmitters, and why TalkSport's
are reportedly running at -6dB
If you assume Droitwich's 198 kHz is a 100% efficient (it won't be), and
the antenna system gain is 0dB (it might be), then that's 400kW. Assume
33p/unit then that's 132 quid an hour., 3.1k per day, 1.1 million quid a
year. Yea, OK solar panels would help a bit, but if you think that's
sustainable in this day and age (with one man and his dog left
listening) think again.

You’d need an awful lot of solar panels. I’ve 10 installed on my roof
recently. On a very sunny day like today they manage three and a bit kW.
And you’d have to close down at dusk :)

In all seriousness, who listens to LW these days?

[John Williamson]

Post by Tweed
In all seriousness, who listens to LW these days?

A lot of dual rate electricity meters, though they are a dying breed.

[Tweed]

Post by John Williamson

Post by Tweed
In all seriousness, who listens to LW these days?

A lot of dual rate electricity meters, though they are a dying breed.

The radio teleswitch service is due for the chop. It’s staggering on at the
moment:

https://www.energynetworks.org/industry-hub/engineering-and-technical-programmes/radio-teleswitch

The system has continued to operate satisfactorily and has enabled user
companies to provide added value to their customers.

The Central Teleswitch Control Unit (CTCU) was updated at the end of
January 2008 to replace the obsolete hardware with brand new, modern, fully
supported equipment. The old DEC MicroVAX machines were replaced with HP
Integrity 2600s. The operating system was also upgraded to OpenVMS 8.3.

All communications lines have also been updated and internet access has
been introduced in addition to the dial in access by modem.

The update has markedly improved the performance and stability of the
system.

The life of Radio Teleswitching is being extended through to March 2024.

[Scott]

On Tue, 4 Apr 2023 17:35:11 -0000 (UTC), Tweed
<***@gmail.com> wrote:
[snip]

Post by Tweed
The life of Radio Teleswitching is being extended through to March 2024.

I think I read somewhere that the 2024 date will not be met and a
further extension is very likely. Any basis?

[tony sayer]

Post by Tweed

Post by Mark Carver

Post by John Williamson
You just need a biggish field, and you can make a profit by using the
land for grazing, growing crops, or, nowadays, by installing solar
panels to power the transmitter with a bit left over to sell.
When the Daventry antenna farm was still in use, I kept seeing animals
in the grounds when I drove past.
The expensive bit is inside the buildings.

The expensive bit now is powering the things inside the buildings.
That's why Absolute Radio closed their transmitters, and why TalkSport's
are reportedly running at -6dB
If you assume Droitwich's 198 kHz is a 100% efficient (it won't be), and
the antenna system gain is 0dB (it might be), then that's 400kW. Assume
33p/unit then that's 132 quid an hour., 3.1k per day, 1.1 million quid a
year. Yea, OK solar panels would help a bit, but if you think that's
sustainable in this day and age (with one man and his dog left
listening) think again.

You’d need an awful lot of solar panels. I’ve 10 installed on my roof
recently. On a very sunny day like today they manage three and a bit kW.
And you’d have to close down at dusk :)
In all seriousness, who listens to LW these days?

I suspect a few die-hards do as well as some who listen to that RTE LW
service in the UK 'an all:)

[Woody]

Post by tony sayer

Post by Tweed

Post by Mark Carver

Post by John Williamson
You just need a biggish field, and you can make a profit by using the
land for grazing, growing crops, or, nowadays, by installing solar
panels to power the transmitter with a bit left over to sell.
When the Daventry antenna farm was still in use, I kept seeing animals
in the grounds when I drove past.
The expensive bit is inside the buildings.

The expensive bit now is powering the things inside the buildings.
That's why Absolute Radio closed their transmitters, and why TalkSport's
are reportedly running at -6dB
If you assume Droitwich's 198 kHz is a 100% efficient (it won't be), and
the antenna system gain is 0dB (it might be), then that's 400kW. Assume
33p/unit then that's 132 quid an hour., 3.1k per day, 1.1 million quid a
year. Yea, OK solar panels would help a bit, but if you think that's
sustainable in this day and age (with one man and his dog left
listening) think again.

You’d need an awful lot of solar panels. I’ve 10 installed on my roof
recently. On a very sunny day like today they manage three and a bit kW.
And you’d have to close down at dusk :)
In all seriousness, who listens to LW these days?

I suspect a few die-hards do as well as some who listen to that RTE LW
service in the UK 'an all:)

Except RTE Radio 1 on 252KHz closes on 14th of this month.

[tony sayer]

Post by Woody

Post by tony sayer

Post by Tweed

Post by Mark Carver

Post by John Williamson
You just need a biggish field, and you can make a profit by using the
land for grazing, growing crops, or, nowadays, by installing solar
panels to power the transmitter with a bit left over to sell.
When the Daventry antenna farm was still in use, I kept seeing animals
in the grounds when I drove past.
The expensive bit is inside the buildings.

The expensive bit now is powering the things inside the buildings.
That's why Absolute Radio closed their transmitters, and why TalkSport's
are reportedly running at -6dB
If you assume Droitwich's 198 kHz is a 100% efficient (it won't be), and
the antenna system gain is 0dB (it might be), then that's 400kW. Assume
33p/unit then that's 132 quid an hour., 3.1k per day, 1.1 million quid a
year. Yea, OK solar panels would help a bit, but if you think that's
sustainable in this day and age (with one man and his dog left
listening) think again.

You’d need an awful lot of solar panels. I’ve 10 installed on my roof
recently. On a very sunny day like today they manage three and a bit kW.
And you’d have to close down at dusk :)
In all seriousness, who listens to LW these days?

I suspect a few die-hards do as well as some who listen to that RTE LW
service in the UK 'an all:)

Except RTE Radio 1 on 252KHz closes on 14th of this month.

Shame that 'seein thats where my roots are!

Its a wonder that Irish programming isn't on DAB in the UK?...

[MB]

Post by tony sayer
Its a wonder that Irish programming isn't on DAB in the UK?...

Wasn't there talk of it at one time.

[Scott]

Post by MB

Post by tony sayer
Its a wonder that Irish programming isn't on DAB in the UK?...

Wasn't there talk of it at one time.

Are they in NI?

[Brian Gregory]

Post by tony sayer

Post by Woody

Post by tony sayer

Post by Tweed

Post by Mark Carver

Post by John Williamson
You just need a biggish field, and you can make a profit by using the
land for grazing, growing crops, or, nowadays, by installing solar
panels to power the transmitter with a bit left over to sell.
When the Daventry antenna farm was still in use, I kept seeing animals
in the grounds when I drove past.
The expensive bit is inside the buildings.

The expensive bit now is powering the things inside the buildings.
That's why Absolute Radio closed their transmitters, and why TalkSport's
are reportedly running at -6dB
If you assume Droitwich's 198 kHz is a 100% efficient (it won't be), and
the antenna system gain is 0dB (it might be), then that's 400kW. Assume
33p/unit then that's 132 quid an hour., 3.1k per day, 1.1 million quid a
year. Yea, OK solar panels would help a bit, but if you think that's
sustainable in this day and age (with one man and his dog left
listening) think again.

You’d need an awful lot of solar panels. I’ve 10 installed on my roof
recently. On a very sunny day like today they manage three and a bit kW.
And you’d have to close down at dusk :)
In all seriousness, who listens to LW these days?

I suspect a few die-hards do as well as some who listen to that RTE LW
service in the UK 'an all:)

Except RTE Radio 1 on 252KHz closes on 14th of this month.

Shame that 'seein thats where my roots are!
Its a wonder that Irish programming isn't on DAB in the UK?...

RTE Radio 1, 2FM, Lyric fm, and R na G are all FTA on Astra 2 28.2°E.

[MB]

Post by Mark Carver
The expensive bit now is powering the things inside the buildings.
That's why Absolute Radio closed their transmitters, and why TalkSport's
are reportedly running at -6dB
If you assume Droitwich's 198 kHz is a 100% efficient (it won't be), and
the antenna system gain is 0dB (it might be), then that's 400kW. Assume
33p/unit then that's 132 quid an hour., 3.1k per day, 1.1 million quid a
year. Yea, OK solar panels would help a bit, but if you think that's
sustainable in this day and age (with one man and his dog left
listening) think again.

Not easy to make anything running that sort of power and if you use
valves then there will be high voltages and if solid state then LOTS of
Amps. When things go wrong then they can go wrong spectacularly!

[MB]

Post by John Williamson
You just need a biggish field, and you can make a profit by using the
land for grazing, growing crops, or, nowadays, by installing solar
panels to power the transmitter with a bit left over to sell.

I suspect that all the extra screen and protection to the control
systems might cancel out any gains.

I can't remember the figures but it was said that the M&S store at
Lisburn was their most expensive to build.

[Scott]

Post by MB

Post by John Williamson
You just need a biggish field, and you can make a profit by using the
land for grazing, growing crops, or, nowadays, by installing solar
panels to power the transmitter with a bit left over to sell.

I suspect that all the extra screen and protection to the control
systems might cancel out any gains.
I can't remember the figures but it was said that the M&S store at
Lisburn was their most expensive to build.

Is this because of shielding from electromagnetic radiation? I once
visited the radio museum at Lahti in the old transmission hall below
the main antenna and some fluorescent tubes were illuminated without
being plugged in. There was also a demonstration that involved
pointing a spike at an earthed reinforcing of the concrete to create
an electric arc.

[JMB99]

Post by Scott
Is this because of shielding from electromagnetic radiation? I once
visited the radio museum at Lahti in the old transmission hall below the
main antenna and some fluorescent tubes were illuminated without being
plugged in. There was also a demonstration that involved pointing a
spike at an earthed reinforcing of the concrete to create an electric arc.

The 'party trick' at Criggion was some to hold a fluorescent tube in
their hand in the coil chamber, it would light up as each pulse was
transmitted.

(OMEGA had five transmitters that transmitted in turn).

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+ Paypal Veritified with balance and price (Email address + password) full infomation:
100$ = 1 Account PP 2000$
200$ = 1 Account PP 4500$
300$ = 1 Account PP 8500$
500$ = 1 Account PP 13000$


===> Price of ATM Card ($/£/€):

ATM card 4000$ = 250$
ATM card 7000$ = 450$

ATM card 6000$ = 350$
ATM card 8000$ = 750$

ATM card 2000£ = 150$
ATM card 5000£ = 300$

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you 24h after you buy.....


- Payment methods : BTC(Bitcoin)


VERIFIED SELLER BY DUMPSCVVLOGS (ADMIN)

[Scott]

On Mon, 3 Apr 2023 12:02:56 +0100, John Williamson

Post by John Williamson
The only reason we are keeping our Long Wave station going is because
the carrier is modulated to carry timing information for the surviving
older off peak metering systems, and as soon as they are replaced by
more modern systems, the transmitters will be turned off, partly due to
the massive cost of the power they use. You can buy a solid state
replacement for the current valve transmitters almost off the shelf. It
would be a modular design, and rather more efficient than the current
system. The makers are, if I remember correctly, German.

I assume all three LW transmitters have to broadcast radio teleswitch
or the signals from Westerglen and Burghead would swamp the teleswitch
signal?

[Tweed]

Post by Scott
On Mon, 3 Apr 2023 12:02:56 +0100, John Williamson

Post by John Williamson
The only reason we are keeping our Long Wave station going is because
the carrier is modulated to carry timing information for the surviving
older off peak metering systems, and as soon as they are replaced by
more modern systems, the transmitters will be turned off, partly due to
the massive cost of the power they use. You can buy a solid state
replacement for the current valve transmitters almost off the shelf. It
would be a modular design, and rather more efficient than the current
system. The makers are, if I remember correctly, German.

I assume all three LW transmitters have to broadcast radio teleswitch
or the signals from Westerglen and Burghead would swamp the teleswitch
signal?

Yes all three LW transmitters emit the radio teleswitch signal.

https://www.energynetworks.org/industry-hub/engineering-and-technical-programmes/radio-teleswitch

Technical specifications
The system basically comprises user terminals and modems, the central
teleswitch control unit (CTCU) the LF Data System, the 198kHz BBC Radio
Four transmission system and radio teleswitching receiver controllers
(RCs).

Each user of the system, the electricity distribution networks operators
and electricity transmission network operator has a unique set of codes
enabling them to address only their own block of meters and switches.

These instructions are sent by the network operators to the Central
Teleswitch Control Unit (CTCU) housed and maintained by Cygnet Solutions.

The CTCU processes and forwards their switching codes to the BBC Message
Assembler at Crystal Palace.

Here, the electricity industry codes are combined with the instructions
from other users of the service and sent to the three national networks of
transmitters. The main transmitter at Droitwich (see also the BBC site),
rated at 500kW, can reach most parts of the UK and some parts of
continental Europe while the two smaller transmitters located at Westerglen
and Burghead cover Scotland and Northern Ireland.

At present, it is understood that the only other user of the system is the
Environment Agency who use the system to disseminate flood warnings.
Messages are encoded onto the Amplitude Modulated (AM) Radio 4 signal using
Phase Shift Keying (PSK) techniques.

30 messages are transmitted per minute, each message having 50 bits of
data. 18 of these bits are taken up by a BBC header and Cyclic Redundancy
Check (CRC) tail. 32 bits are available for data.

The RadioTeleswitch specification (BS7647) lays down specific formats for
its user message contents. Two message types are defined:

command (or immediate) which has priority of broadcast, and on receipt
immediately sets a Teleswitch (RCs) internal switches to required status,
overriding any programmed status;
programme, which updates or refreshes the operating program stored within a
Teleswitch (i.e. internal switches will not change status until required by
the program).
An ‘immediate’ instruction can take one or two minutes from initiation of a
request at the terminal of a user, depending on other traffic on the data
system, and is intended to allow fast, broadcast load shedding.

The system’s ability to offer users both programmed and immediate broadcast
control have enabled companies using the system to provide weather-related
control of electricity storage heaters in specialised arrangements such as
‘budget warmth’ and ‘heat with rent’ schemes.

The transmission of cost reflective messages and weather forecast
information has allowed the concept of controlled consumption to be
extended to provide more comprehensive forms of premium heating and other
services. The ability to influence demand patterns more finely so that they
respond more immediately to changes in supply cost, is to the advantage of
both suppliers and customers. It gives customers another form of choice.

Other applications already in place, or currently possible, include
regional flood warning alarm systems, common remote control at multiple
sites, such as weather-related environmental control in unmanned buildings,
the control of services such as water and gas at point of entry into
premises or, in the case of water, at points of connection to storage tanks
and the replacement of other more expensive in-house remote control
systems.

[Brian Gaff]

Which got me to thinking, how low a frequency could one use that would still
have enough bandwidth to send audio over?
If we are talking AM then I'd suggest it would need to be at least 50Khz,
to accommodate it.
Brian
--
--:
This newsgroup posting comes to you directly from...
The Sofa of Brian Gaff...
***@blueyonder.co.uk
Blind user, so no pictures please
Note this Signature is meaningless.!

Post by Tweed

Post by Scott
On Mon, 3 Apr 2023 12:02:56 +0100, John Williamson

Post by John Williamson
The only reason we are keeping our Long Wave station going is because
the carrier is modulated to carry timing information for the surviving
older off peak metering systems, and as soon as they are replaced by
more modern systems, the transmitters will be turned off, partly due to
the massive cost of the power they use. You can buy a solid state
replacement for the current valve transmitters almost off the shelf. It
would be a modular design, and rather more efficient than the current
system. The makers are, if I remember correctly, German.

I assume all three LW transmitters have to broadcast radio teleswitch
or the signals from Westerglen and Burghead would swamp the teleswitch
signal?

Yes all three LW transmitters emit the radio teleswitch signal.
https://www.energynetworks.org/industry-hub/engineering-and-technical-programmes/radio-teleswitch
Technical specifications
The system basically comprises user terminals and modems, the central
teleswitch control unit (CTCU) the LF Data System, the 198kHz BBC Radio
Four transmission system and radio teleswitching receiver controllers
(RCs).
Each user of the system, the electricity distribution networks operators
and electricity transmission network operator has a unique set of codes
enabling them to address only their own block of meters and switches.
These instructions are sent by the network operators to the Central
Teleswitch Control Unit (CTCU) housed and maintained by Cygnet Solutions.
The CTCU processes and forwards their switching codes to the BBC Message
Assembler at Crystal Palace.
Here, the electricity industry codes are combined with the instructions
from other users of the service and sent to the three national networks of
transmitters. The main transmitter at Droitwich (see also the BBC site),
rated at 500kW, can reach most parts of the UK and some parts of
continental Europe while the two smaller transmitters located at Westerglen
and Burghead cover Scotland and Northern Ireland.
At present, it is understood that the only other user of the system is the
Environment Agency who use the system to disseminate flood warnings.
Messages are encoded onto the Amplitude Modulated (AM) Radio 4 signal using
Phase Shift Keying (PSK) techniques.
30 messages are transmitted per minute, each message having 50 bits of
data. 18 of these bits are taken up by a BBC header and Cyclic Redundancy
Check (CRC) tail. 32 bits are available for data.
The RadioTeleswitch specification (BS7647) lays down specific formats for
command (or immediate) which has priority of broadcast, and on receipt
immediately sets a Teleswitch (RCs) internal switches to required status,
overriding any programmed status;
programme, which updates or refreshes the operating program stored within a
Teleswitch (i.e. internal switches will not change status until required by
the program).
An 'immediate' instruction can take one or two minutes from initiation of
a
request at the terminal of a user, depending on other traffic on the data
system, and is intended to allow fast, broadcast load shedding.
The system's ability to offer users both programmed and immediate
broadcast
control have enabled companies using the system to provide weather-related
control of electricity storage heaters in specialised arrangements such as
'budget warmth' and 'heat with rent' schemes.
The transmission of cost reflective messages and weather forecast
information has allowed the concept of controlled consumption to be
extended to provide more comprehensive forms of premium heating and other
services. The ability to influence demand patterns more finely so that they
respond more immediately to changes in supply cost, is to the advantage of
both suppliers and customers. It gives customers another form of choice.
Other applications already in place, or currently possible, include
regional flood warning alarm systems, common remote control at multiple
sites, such as weather-related environmental control in unmanned buildings,
the control of services such as water and gas at point of entry into
premises or, in the case of water, at points of connection to storage tanks
and the replacement of other more expensive in-house remote control
systems.

[Mark Carver]

Post by Brian Gaff
Which got me to thinking, how low a frequency could one use that would still
have enough bandwidth to send audio over?

It uses phase shift modulation, the teleswitching data rate channel is
tiny, 25 BITS per second.

http://txfeatures.mb21.co.uk/teleswitching/index.shtml

[Brian Gaff]

I was meaning if you wanted it to be an audio carrier. Obviously the Q of
the coil wood be higher, but I'd have thought this could be dampened enough
to get the spoken word through. The aerial to transmit from, though would be
very large if any kind of efficiency was required. Some radio hams have used
the very low frequencies now available and they have not been very
successful at all.
Brian
--
--:
This newsgroup posting comes to you directly from...
The Sofa of Brian Gaff...
***@blueyonder.co.uk
Blind user, so no pictures please
Note this Signature is meaningless.!

Post by Mark Carver

Post by Brian Gaff
Which got me to thinking, how low a frequency could one use that would still
have enough bandwidth to send audio over?

It uses phase shift modulation, the teleswitching data rate channel is
tiny, 25 BITS per second.
http://txfeatures.mb21.co.uk/teleswitching/index.shtml

[MB]

Post by Brian Gaff
I was meaning if you wanted it to be an audio carrier. Obviously the Q of
the coil wood be higher, but I'd have thought this could be dampened enough
to get the spoken word through. The aerial to transmit from, though would be
very large if any kind of efficiency was required. Some radio hams have used
the very low frequencies now available and they have not been very
successful at all.

I believe water companies have used low data rates to get telemetry from
remote sites.

[NY]

Post by Brian Gaff
Which got me to thinking, how low a frequency could one use that would
still have enough bandwidth to send audio over?
If we are talking AM then I'd suggest it would need to be at least 50Khz,
to accommodate it.

I presume the limiting case is for the modulating frequency to be more than
twice the bandwidth of the signal. For example, with AM and a signal that is
band-limited to 10 kHz, you could probably use anything over 10 kHz, when
the frequencies transmitted would range from carrier minus 10 kHz to carrier
plus 10 kHz (+ and - spelled out for Brian's screen reader!). But you might
get unusual propagation for very low frequencies in the lower sideband
(carrier minus 10 kHz) and/or require a very large aerial.

My signal generator has an AM modulator built in which can modulate an
external signal with a sine wave that the sig-gen produces. When I first got
it, I experimented and managed to get usable AM with a carrier of about 20
kHz and a simple LC circuit (using a variable capacitor) and a diode to
demodulate. Come to think of it, I wonder if it was AM (DSB plus carrier) or
just DSB. It's too long ago to remember whether I got motorboating when I
was mis-tuned. It was one of those "this is cool - I wonder if it works"
things that I tried and then thought "I probably won't ever need it" ;-)

I suppose nowadays I could record the output with a PC sound card (as long
as the modulated output is below about 20 kHz for a 44 kHz sampling rate)
and then demodulate in software.

[Liz Tuddenham]

Post by Brian Gaff
Which got me to thinking, how low a frequency could one use that would still
have enough bandwidth to send audio over?
If we are talking AM then I'd suggest it would need to be at least 50Khz,
to accommodate it.

I think you would run into bandwidth problems with the 'Q' of the aerial
and tuning coils. I believe this has to be taken in to account even at
200 Kc/s.

[Rink]

Post by John Williamson

Post by Brian Gaff
Now that the Irish are leaving too, how long can the BBC keep going? I
noticed some weaker stations sounding distinctly Russian and in one
case
Arabic, but why is LW no longer a good idea? Is it the large sizes of
aerials, or the terrible interference we all suffer from from various
devices these days. I guess if there was a market for it still, radios would
still come with the band and transmitter makers would be doing more than
fixing broken bits of old kit.
Brian

<snip>

Post by John Williamson
Russia has a very large area to cover, and is, overall, a poor country
with limited facilities, so it makes sense for them to put a *big* long
wave transmitter somewhere near the middle, rather than a network of
smaller ones in each town. They are closing down their Medium Wave
stations, probably replacing them with FM whihc can't be received
outside their line of sight.
Because of the coverage pattern, Russia also uses a lot of short wave
band broadcasting, though they are replacing a lot of the official,
coded stuff with satellites.

Russia switched off all their longwave broadcast stations many years ago.
They use only a few MW transmitters.

As you can see on the best LW/MW site:
http://www.mwlist.org/mwlist_quick_and_easy.php?area=1&kHz=9999

BBC reported this in 2014:
https://www.bbc.com/news/blogs-news-from-elsewhere-25683656

Rink