Sound from the Abbey

[Tweed]

On BBC One via satellite there seems to be occasional breakups of the sound
from Westminster Abbey this morning. Picture not affected.

[jon_t]

Post by Tweed
On BBC One via satellite there seems to be occasional breakups of the
sound from Westminster Abbey this morning. Picture not affected.

Yes, noticed that as well.

[Liz Tuddenham]

Post by jon_t

Post by Tweed
On BBC One via satellite there seems to be occasional breakups of the
sound from Westminster Abbey this morning. Picture not affected.

Yes, noticed that as well.

So far (11:30) there have been three late mic fade-ups. Didn't they
have a rehearsal?

[MB]

Post by Tweed
On BBC One via satellite there seems to be occasional breakups of the sound
from Westminster Abbey this morning. Picture not affected.

I was going to ask also - I am watching Freeview.

Seems to on louder bits of sound?

[Tweed]

Post by MB

Post by Tweed
On BBC One via satellite there seems to be occasional breakups of the sound
from Westminster Abbey this morning. Picture not affected.

I was going to ask also - I am watching Freeview.
Seems to on louder bits of sound?

Yes, loud peaks seem to cause a cut. Still going on. I thought everything
was supposed to have a backup for things like this.

[J. P. Gilliver]

Post by Tweed

Post by MB

Post by Tweed
On BBC One via satellite there seems to be occasional breakups of the sound
from Westminster Abbey this morning. Picture not affected.

I noticed the same (not just from the abbey - also during the procession
to (and from, I think).

Post by Tweed

Post by MB
I was going to ask also - I am watching Freeview.

I was watching on FreeView HD (i. e. 101).

Post by Tweed

Post by MB
Seems to on louder bits of sound?

Yes, loud peaks seem to cause a cut. Still going on. I thought everything

It didn't seem to me connected to anything - just cut out, as if a loose
connection.

Post by Tweed
was supposed to have a backup for things like this.

Yes, I thought it was unforgivable for such an event: sure, you get
glitches, but some of the dropouts were long enough that I'd have hoped
someone would have pressed the "switch to backup" switch, or whatever. I
strongly suspect there was minimal (certainly off-air) monitoring of
sound, only picture.

[Max Demian]

Post by J. P. Gilliver

Post by Tweed

Post by MB

Post by Tweed
On BBC One via satellite there seems to be occasional breakups of the sound
from Westminster Abbey this morning. Picture not affected.

I noticed the same (not just from the abbey - also during the procession
to (and from, I think).

Post by Tweed

Post by MB
I was going to ask also - I am watching Freeview.

I was watching on FreeView HD (i. e. 101).

Post by Tweed

Post by MB
Seems to on louder bits of sound?

Yes, loud peaks seem to cause a cut. Still going on. I thought everything

It didn't seem to me connected to anything - just cut out, as if a loose
connection.

Post by Tweed
was supposed to have a backup for things like this.

Yes, I thought it was unforgivable for such an event: sure, you get
glitches, but some of the dropouts were long enough that I'd have hoped
someone would have pressed the "switch to backup" switch, or whatever. I
strongly suspect there was minimal (certainly off-air) monitoring of
sound, only picture.

https://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-12053923/Furious-viewers-slam-BBC-coronation-coverage-terrible-audio-quality.html

It was all right on the "highlights" programme shown at 7pm, so either
they had another source for sound or they just selected parts which had
good sound. (The music didn't always correspond to the picture during
the anointing and crowning.)

[Mark Carver]

Post by Max Demian

Post by J. P. Gilliver

Post by Tweed

Post by MB

Post by Tweed
On BBC One via satellite there seems to be occasional breakups of the sound
from Westminster Abbey this morning. Picture not affected.

I noticed the same (not just from the abbey - also during the
procession to (and from, I think).

Post by Tweed

Post by MB
I was going to ask also - I am watching Freeview.

I was watching on FreeView HD (i. e. 101).

Post by Tweed

Post by MB
Seems to on louder bits of sound?

Yes, loud peaks seem to cause a cut. Still going on. I thought everything

It didn't seem to me connected to anything - just cut out, as if a
loose connection.

Post by Tweed
was supposed to have a backup for things like this.

Yes, I thought it was unforgivable for such an event: sure, you get
glitches, but some of the dropouts were long enough that I'd have
hoped someone would have pressed the "switch to backup" switch, or
whatever. I strongly suspect there was minimal (certainly off-air)
monitoring of sound, only picture.

https://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-12053923/Furious-viewers-slam-BBC-coronation-coverage-terrible-audio-quality.html
It was all right on the "highlights" programme shown at 7pm, so either
they had another source for sound or they just selected parts which
had good sound. (The music didn't always correspond to the picture
during the anointing and crowning.)

Which probably suggests the fault was downstream of the BBC's domestic
pres truck, but upstream of the code and mux stage. My guess, the link
between the on site BBC pres truck (and not the one producing the 'World
Feed') and the playout centre in W12

[Tweed]

Post by Mark Carver

Post by Max Demian

Post by J. P. Gilliver

Post by Tweed

Post by MB

Post by Tweed
On BBC One via satellite there seems to be occasional breakups of the sound
from Westminster Abbey this morning. Picture not affected.

I noticed the same (not just from the abbey - also during the
procession to (and from, I think).

Post by Tweed

Post by MB
I was going to ask also - I am watching Freeview.

I was watching on FreeView HD (i. e. 101).

Post by Tweed

Post by MB
Seems to on louder bits of sound?

Yes, loud peaks seem to cause a cut. Still going on. I thought everything

It didn't seem to me connected to anything - just cut out, as if a
loose connection.

Post by Tweed
was supposed to have a backup for things like this.

Yes, I thought it was unforgivable for such an event: sure, you get
glitches, but some of the dropouts were long enough that I'd have
hoped someone would have pressed the "switch to backup" switch, or
whatever. I strongly suspect there was minimal (certainly off-air)
monitoring of sound, only picture.

https://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-12053923/Furious-viewers-slam-BBC-coronation-coverage-terrible-audio-quality.html
It was all right on the "highlights" programme shown at 7pm, so either
they had another source for sound or they just selected parts which
had good sound. (The music didn't always correspond to the picture
during the anointing and crowning.)

Which probably suggests the fault was downstream of the BBC's domestic
pres truck, but upstream of the code and mux stage. My guess, the link
between the on site BBC pres truck (and not the one producing the 'World
Feed') and the playout centre in W12

Don’t we have redundant feeds for matters of national importance anymore?

[MB]

Post by Tweed
Don’t we have redundant feeds for matters of national importance anymore?

It used to be multiple backups.

I was at Llanddona during the Investiture, I think there were OB links
going along the North coast and down the West coast. Also a 200 watt
TWT at Great Orme's Head that linked direct to Winter Hill.

We were told we could take a feed from ITV if all circuits were lost.

Also a RT channel that was never powered up so the baddies could not get
the frequency and be ready to jam it.

[charles]

Post by MB

Don‘t we have redundant feeds for matters of national importance anymore?

It used to be multiple backups.
I was at Llanddona during the Investiture, I think there were OB links
going along the North coast and down the West coast. Also a 200 watt
TWT at Great Orme's Head that linked direct to Winter Hill.
We were told we could take a feed from ITV if all circuits were lost.
Also a RT channel that was never powered up so the baddies could not get
the frequency and be ready to jam it.

Working in Standards Conversion on the day of the Investiture, I was given
a young Welshman for the day (so that he didn't work in the BBC! programme
chain (in case he sabotaged it). At the end of the day I asked him to write
up our programme log - in Welsh. There were no queries.

[J. P. Gilliver]

[]

Post by Tweed

Post by Mark Carver
Which probably suggests the fault was downstream of the BBC's domestic
pres truck, but upstream of the code and mux stage. My guess, the link
between the on site BBC pres truck (and not the one producing the 'World
Feed') and the playout centre in W12

Don’t we have redundant feeds for matters of national importance anymore?

I doubt it's the feed redundancy, but a matter of where monitoring was
taking place. Surely for something like this, ye olde off-air monitoring
should have been in place.

(Or, of course, telephone systems manned by the odd actual engineer*, so
that tech-savvy members of the public could call in. But that faded out
decades ago.)

*Yes, I know they (we) are all odd.

[Bob Latham]

Post by Mark Carver
Which probably suggests the fault was downstream of the BBC's
domestic pres truck, but upstream of the code and mux stage. My
guess, the link between the on site BBC pres truck (and not the
one producing the 'World Feed') and the playout centre in W12

I'm really disappointed by this. They had months to prepare and test.
Months to get redundancy and monitoring in place and yet they failed
miserably to sort it on the day. Unbelievably, the shambles continued
into last night's concert.

Inexcusable, heads should roll.

Bob.

[J. P. Gilliver]

Post by Bob Latham

Post by Mark Carver
Which probably suggests the fault was downstream of the BBC's
domestic pres truck, but upstream of the code and mux stage. My
guess, the link between the on site BBC pres truck (and not the
one producing the 'World Feed') and the playout centre in W12

I'm really disappointed by this. They had months to prepare and test.
Months to get redundancy and monitoring in place and yet they failed
miserably to sort it on the day. Unbelievably, the shambles continued
into last night's concert.
Inexcusable, heads should roll.
Bob.

As I said earlier, I suspect it's a matter of monitoring being either in
the wrong place, or not done; the test design thus being at fault. If
the fault was downstream from where any monitoring, they wouldn't know
there _was_ a fault (monitoring in wrong place); if nobody was
monitoring the audio at all, only the pictures, that's bad too.

[Bob Latham]

Post by J. P. Gilliver

Post by Bob Latham

Post by Mark Carver
Which probably suggests the fault was downstream of the BBC's
domestic pres truck, but upstream of the code and mux stage. My
guess, the link between the on site BBC pres truck (and not the
one producing the 'World Feed') and the playout centre in W12

I'm really disappointed by this. They had months to prepare and
test. Months to get redundancy and monitoring in place and yet
they failed miserably to sort it on the day. Unbelievably, the
shambles continued into last night's concert.
Inexcusable, heads should roll.
Bob.

As I said earlier, I suspect it's a matter of monitoring being
either in the wrong place, or not done; the test design thus being
at fault. If the fault was downstream from where any monitoring,
they wouldn't know there _was_ a fault (monitoring in wrong place);
if nobody was monitoring the audio at all, only the pictures,
that's bad too.

Forgive my naivety and ignorance of how it all was supposed to work.
I find it impossible to believe that in all the BBC buildings in the
UK no one was actually watching (with sound on) the broadcast the
nation was lumbered with.

Bob.

[charles]

Post by Bob Latham

Post by J. P. Gilliver

Post by Bob Latham

Post by Mark Carver
Which probably suggests the fault was downstream of the BBC's
domestic pres truck, but upstream of the code and mux stage. My
guess, the link between the on site BBC pres truck (and not the
one producing the 'World Feed') and the playout centre in W12

I'm really disappointed by this. They had months to prepare and
test. Months to get redundancy and monitoring in place and yet
they failed miserably to sort it on the day. Unbelievably, the
shambles continued into last night's concert.
Inexcusable, heads should roll.
Bob.

As I said earlier, I suspect it's a matter of monitoring being
either in the wrong place, or not done; the test design thus being
at fault. If the fault was downstream from where any monitoring,
they wouldn't know there _was_ a fault (monitoring in wrong place);
if nobody was monitoring the audio at all, only the pictures,
that's bad too.

Forgive my naivety and ignorance of how it all was supposed to work.
I find it impossible to believe that in all the BBC buildings in the
UK no one was actually watching (with sound on) the broadcast the
nation was lumbered with.

I watched, at home, from Crystal Palace. and didn't notice anything amiss.

[Bob Latham]

Post by charles

Post by Bob Latham

Post by J. P. Gilliver
As I said earlier, I suspect it's a matter of monitoring being
either in the wrong place, or not done; the test design thus being
at fault. If the fault was downstream from where any monitoring,
they wouldn't know there _was_ a fault (monitoring in wrong place);
if nobody was monitoring the audio at all, only the pictures,
that's bad too.

Forgive my naivety and ignorance of how it all was supposed to
work. I find it impossible to believe that in all the BBC
buildings in the UK no one was actually watching (with sound on)
the broadcast the nation was lumbered with.

I watched, at home, from Crystal Palace. and didn't notice anything amiss.

Oh, it must have been just DTTV Sutton Coldfield and Sky HD then as
both of those were having obvious sound issues.

Bob.

[MB]

Post by Bob Latham
Oh, it must have been just DTTV Sutton Coldfield and Sky HD then as
both of those were having obvious sound issues.

I did not noticed anything wrong last night, both times I was watching
Torosay via a relay station.

[Max Demian]

Post by charles

Post by Bob Latham

Post by J. P. Gilliver
As I said earlier, I suspect it's a matter of monitoring being
either in the wrong place, or not done; the test design thus being
at fault. If the fault was downstream from where any monitoring,
they wouldn't know there _was_ a fault (monitoring in wrong place);
if nobody was monitoring the audio at all, only the pictures,
that's bad too.

Forgive my naivety and ignorance of how it all was supposed to work.
I find it impossible to believe that in all the BBC buildings in the
UK no one was actually watching (with sound on) the broadcast the
nation was lumbered with.

I watched, at home, from Crystal Palace. and didn't notice anything amiss.

So did I, and there were frequent partial dropouts. Most annoying.

[Mark Carver]

Post by Max Demian

Post by charles
I watched, at home, from Crystal Palace. and didn't notice anything amiss.

So did I, and there were frequent partial dropouts. Most annoying.

I didn't witness the problem, but then I was one of the 6 million people
that didn't use the BBC's coverage.

The fault appears to have involved the handling of the 5.1 audio streams
on BBC 1 HD. These are used by your receiver whether or not you are
actually listening in 5.1.
If you are listening in bog standard stereo, or mono, then your receiver
(not the broadcaster) generates the appropriate down-mix.

I've seen reports of many people getting the glitches, and others not,
or not noticing. Clearly there was a problem on the BBC's side of the
fence, but its possible some receivers exacerbated the problem, more
than others.

[Andy Burns]

Post by Mark Carver
The fault appears to have involved the handling of the 5.1 audio streams
on BBC 1 HD. These are used by your receiver whether or not you are
actually listening in 5.1.
If you are listening in bog standard stereo, or mono, then your receiver
(not the broadcaster) generates the appropriate down-mix.
I've seen reports of many people getting the glitches, and others not,
or not noticing. Clearly there was a problem on the BBC's side of the
fence, but its possible some receivers exacerbated the problem, more
than others.

Possibly explains why the UHD stream was unaffected, I think that has
2.0 audio instead of 5.1

[Mark Carver]

Post by Andy Burns

Post by Mark Carver
The fault appears to have involved the handling of the 5.1 audio
streams on BBC 1 HD. These are used by your receiver whether or not
you are actually listening in 5.1.
If you are listening in bog standard stereo, or mono, then your
receiver (not the broadcaster) generates the appropriate down-mix.
I've seen reports of many people getting the glitches, and others
not, or not noticing. Clearly there was a problem on the BBC's side
of the fence, but its possible some receivers exacerbated the
problem, more than others.

Possibly explains why the UHD stream was unaffected, I think that has
2.0 audio instead of 5.1

Yes, and BBC 2 HD was as far as I can tell unaffected, was that a
'carbon copy' commentary wise of BBC 1's coverage ?

As said, there was no problem with the actual 'World Feed' the BBC were
producing, I was watching Sky's UHD service, which suffered no glitches
and was in 5.1
I suspect the US networks were also taking 5.1 audio ?

[charles]

Post by Mark Carver

Post by Max Demian

Post by charles
I watched, at home, from Crystal Palace. and didn't notice anything amiss.

So did I, and there were frequent partial dropouts. Most annoying.

I didn't witness the problem, but then I was one of the 6 million people
that didn't use the BBC's coverage.
The fault appears to have involved the handling of the 5.1 audio streams
on BBC 1 HD. These are used by your receiver whether or not you are
actually listening in 5.1.
If you are listening in bog standard stereo, or mono, then your receiver
(not the broadcaster) generates the appropriate down-mix.
I've seen reports of many people getting the glitches, and others not,
or not noticing. Clearly there was a problem on the BBC's side of the
fence, but its possible some receivers exacerbated the problem, more
than others.

I was taking the digital audio from my Panasonic TV set and feeding it into
my Denon hifi set-up.

[Mark Carver]

Post by charles

Post by Mark Carver

Post by Max Demian

Post by charles
I watched, at home, from Crystal Palace. and didn't notice anything amiss.

So did I, and there were frequent partial dropouts. Most annoying.

I didn't witness the problem, but then I was one of the 6 million people
that didn't use the BBC's coverage.
The fault appears to have involved the handling of the 5.1 audio streams
on BBC 1 HD. These are used by your receiver whether or not you are
actually listening in 5.1.
If you are listening in bog standard stereo, or mono, then your receiver
(not the broadcaster) generates the appropriate down-mix.
I've seen reports of many people getting the glitches, and others not,
or not noticing. Clearly there was a problem on the BBC's side of the
fence, but its possible some receivers exacerbated the problem, more
than others.

I was taking the digital audio from my Panasonic TV set and feeding it into
my Denon hifi set-up.

SPDIF digital link ?  5.1 or 2.0 audio ?

[charles]

Post by charles

Post by Mark Carver

Post by Max Demian

Post by charles
I watched, at home, from Crystal Palace. and didn't notice anything amiss.

So did I, and there were frequent partial dropouts. Most annoying.

I didn't witness the problem, but then I was one of the 6 million
people that didn't use the BBC's coverage. The fault appears to have
involved the handling of the 5.1 audio streams on BBC 1 HD. These are
used by your receiver whether or not you are actually listening in
5.1. If you are listening in bog standard stereo, or mono, then your
receiver (not the broadcaster) generates the appropriate down-mix.
I've seen reports of many people getting the glitches, and others not,
or not noticing. Clearly there was a problem on the BBC's side of the
fence, but its possible some receivers exacerbated the problem, more
than others.

I was taking the digital audio from my Panasonic TV set and feeding it
into my Denon hifi set-up.

SPDIF digital link ? 5.1 or 2.0 audio ?

The manual doesn't say - it's on the default setting

[Mark Carver]

Post by charles

Post by charles

Post by Mark Carver

Post by Max Demian

Post by charles
I watched, at home, from Crystal Palace. and didn't notice anything amiss.

So did I, and there were frequent partial dropouts. Most annoying.

I didn't witness the problem, but then I was one of the 6 million
people that didn't use the BBC's coverage. The fault appears to have
involved the handling of the 5.1 audio streams on BBC 1 HD. These are
used by your receiver whether or not you are actually listening in
5.1. If you are listening in bog standard stereo, or mono, then your
receiver (not the broadcaster) generates the appropriate down-mix.
I've seen reports of many people getting the glitches, and others not,
or not noticing. Clearly there was a problem on the BBC's side of the
fence, but its possible some receivers exacerbated the problem, more
than others.

I was taking the digital audio from my Panasonic TV set and feeding it
into my Denon hifi set-up.

SPDIF digital link ? 5.1 or 2.0 audio ?

The manual doesn't say - it's on the default setting

Well, the answer will be the number of speakers you have connected surely !

Just two speakers or four plus a centre speaker and a sub woofer ?

[charles]

Post by Mark Carver

Post by charles

Post by charles

Post by Mark Carver

Post by Max Demian

Post by charles
I watched, at home, from Crystal Palace. and didn't notice anything amiss.

So did I, and there were frequent partial dropouts. Most annoying.

I didn't witness the problem, but then I was one of the 6 million
people that didn't use the BBC's coverage. The fault appears to have
involved the handling of the 5.1 audio streams on BBC 1 HD. These are
used by your receiver whether or not you are actually listening in
5.1. If you are listening in bog standard stereo, or mono, then your
receiver (not the broadcaster) generates the appropriate down-mix.
I've seen reports of many people getting the glitches, and others not,
or not noticing. Clearly there was a problem on the BBC's side of the
fence, but its possible some receivers exacerbated the problem, more
than others.

I was taking the digital audio from my Panasonic TV set and feeding it
into my Denon hifi set-up.

SPDIF digital link ? 5.1 or 2.0 audio ?

The manual doesn't say - it's on the default setting

Well, the answer will be the number of speakers you have connected surely !
Just two speakers or four plus a centre speaker and a sub woofer ?

2 (Revox) plus a subwoofer.

[Mark Carver]

Post by charles

Post by Mark Carver

Post by charles

Post by charles

Post by Mark Carver

Post by Max Demian

Post by charles
I watched, at home, from Crystal Palace. and didn't notice anything amiss.

So did I, and there were frequent partial dropouts. Most annoying.

I didn't witness the problem, but then I was one of the 6 million
people that didn't use the BBC's coverage. The fault appears to have
involved the handling of the 5.1 audio streams on BBC 1 HD. These are
used by your receiver whether or not you are actually listening in
5.1. If you are listening in bog standard stereo, or mono, then your
receiver (not the broadcaster) generates the appropriate down-mix.
I've seen reports of many people getting the glitches, and others not,
or not noticing. Clearly there was a problem on the BBC's side of the
fence, but its possible some receivers exacerbated the problem, more
than others.

I was taking the digital audio from my Panasonic TV set and feeding it
into my Denon hifi set-up.

SPDIF digital link ? 5.1 or 2.0 audio ?

The manual doesn't say - it's on the default setting

Well, the answer will be the number of speakers you have connected surely !
Just two speakers or four plus a centre speaker and a sub woofer ?

2 (Revox) plus a subwoofer.

Stereo then (2.1)

[Bob Latham]

Post by Mark Carver
The fault appears to have involved the handling of the 5.1 audio
streams on BBC 1 HD.

We started to watch on the new BBC1 HD west mid, the only thing we've
watched on there since it came on - give it a try. I noticed that the
TV was not only having sound drop outs but it was also causing the TV
to put the channel info banner up at the top of the screen. At first
I thought this was carrier loss because of the banner, not so but I
don't understand why sound issues like that should make the banner
come up.

Sky HD also had the sound going off but I have my SkyQ set to stereo
as the modulators don't like 5.1.

Bob.

[Mark Carver]

Post by Bob Latham

Post by Mark Carver
The fault appears to have involved the handling of the 5.1 audio
streams on BBC 1 HD.

We started to watch on the new BBC1 HD west mid, the only thing we've
watched on there since it came on - give it a try. I noticed that the
TV was not only having sound drop outs but it was also causing the TV
to put the channel info banner up at the top of the screen. At first
I thought this was carrier loss because of the banner, not so but I
don't understand why sound issues like that should make the banner
come up.

Sounds to me that the fault was causing the whole programme stream for
BBC 1 HD to be interrupted, and that would cause your telly to 'assume'
the RF signal was dropping in and out.

My AV amp never liked C4 SD South and East . In and out of the ad breaks
there'd be a nasty crack, as there was a momentary pause in the embedded
audio stream (when the playout system opted the regional ad break in and
out) I did make enquires, and someone did confirm eventually there was
an issue on the  S+E region. Then C4 went HD, and it didn't matter (to
me) any more.

I bet they never had any of these issues on the 1953 Coronation !

[John Williamson]

Post by Mark Carver
I bet they never had any of these issues on the 1953 Coronation !

One TV channel, and a network of transmitters all owned and built by the
BBC, linked together with leased lines. Engineers permanently on duty at
every transmitter, monitoring what was going into the antennae, with
most equipment and connections duplicated as they known how unreliable
the system was.

No social media to whinge on, and the press had more important things to
print than stories about sound glitches on the few receivers, had there
been any.

[J. P. Gilliver]

Post by John Williamson

Post by Mark Carver
I bet they never had any of these issues on the 1953 Coronation !

One TV channel, and a network of transmitters all owned and built by
the BBC, linked together with leased lines. Engineers permanently on
duty at every transmitter, monitoring what was going into the antennae,
with most equipment and connections duplicated as they known how
unreliable the system was.
No social media to whinge on, and the press had more important things
to print than stories about sound glitches on the few receivers, had
there been any.

I do remember reading that, as the coach was approaching somewhere
significant (I think it might have been Admiralty Arch), they lost all
pictures; someone gave the rack in the control van a thump, and to
everyone's relief it all came back. (Whether that was just their
monitoring, or what was actually going out, I don't remember if it said;
it's many years since I read it, and I can't remember where.)

[Liz Tuddenham]

Post by J. P. Gilliver

Post by John Williamson

Post by Mark Carver
I bet they never had any of these issues on the 1953 Coronation !

One TV channel, and a network of transmitters all owned and built by
the BBC, linked together with leased lines. Engineers permanently on
duty at every transmitter, monitoring what was going into the antennae,
with most equipment and connections duplicated as they known how
unreliable the system was.
No social media to whinge on, and the press had more important things
to print than stories about sound glitches on the few receivers, had
there been any.

I do remember reading that, as the coach was approaching somewhere
significant (I think it might have been Admiralty Arch), they lost all
pictures; someone gave the rack in the control van a thump, and to
everyone's relief it all came back. (Whether that was just their
monitoring, or what was actually going out, I don't remember if it said;
it's many years since I read it, and I can't remember where.)

I think that was during the 1937 coronation. It occurred a few minutes
before the OB was due to go live and I think it was caused by a loose
valveholder connection in the synch pulse generator.

[charles]

Post by Liz Tuddenham

Post by J. P. Gilliver

Post by John Williamson

Post by Mark Carver
I bet they never had any of these issues on the 1953 Coronation !

One TV channel, and a network of transmitters all owned and built by
the BBC, linked together with leased lines. Engineers permanently on
duty at every transmitter, monitoring what was going into the antennae,
with most equipment and connections duplicated as they known how
unreliable the system was.
No social media to whinge on, and the press had more important things
to print than stories about sound glitches on the few receivers, had
there been any.

I do remember reading that, as the coach was approaching somewhere
significant (I think it might have been Admiralty Arch), they lost all
pictures; someone gave the rack in the control van a thump, and to
everyone's relief it all came back. (Whether that was just their
monitoring, or what was actually going out, I don't remember if it said;
it's many years since I read it, and I can't remember where.)

I think that was during the 1937 coronation. It occurred a few minutes
before the OB was due to go live and I think it was caused by a loose
valveholder connection in the synch pulse generator.

This is mentioned in Pawley p 150; but not the exact nature of the fault.
"Percussive Maintenance" can be very useful.
I was interested to note that it was raining!

[J. P. Gilliver]

[]

Post by charles

Post by Liz Tuddenham

Post by J. P. Gilliver
I do remember reading that, as the coach was approaching somewhere
significant (I think it might have been Admiralty Arch), they lost all
pictures; someone gave the rack in the control van a thump, and to
everyone's relief it all came back. (Whether that was just their
monitoring, or what was actually going out, I don't remember if it said;
it's many years since I read it, and I can't remember where.)

I think that was during the 1937 coronation. It occurred a few minutes

Ah, I think you're right. The two events blur rather - technically,
anyway - in my mind, as large OB events early in TV. (Well, "early" from
my perspective [born 1960].)

Post by charles

Post by Liz Tuddenham
before the OB was due to go live and I think it was caused by a loose
valveholder connection in the synch pulse generator.

Ah, the British valveholder industry, as Gerry the Museum would say!

Post by charles
This is mentioned in Pawley p 150; but not the exact nature of the fault.
"Percussive Maintenance" can be very useful.

Oh yes - especially in the days of valve equipment which (a) had a lot
of socketed components (b) caused such thermal cycling.

Post by charles
I was interested to note that it was raining!

Maybe another reason I blur the events (or was it sunny for the
wedding?)

[Mary Wolstenholme]

Post by Liz Tuddenham
I think that was during the 1937 coronation. It occurred a few minutes
before the OB was due to go live and I think it was caused by a loose
valveholder connection in the synch pulse generator.

What was a synch pulse generator used for in 1937 ?

[John Williamson]

Post by Mary Wolstenholme

Post by Liz Tuddenham
I think that was during the 1937 coronation. It occurred a few minutes
before the OB was due to go live and I think it was caused by a loose
valveholder connection in the synch pulse generator.

What was a synch pulse generator used for in 1937 ?

The same as it was until digital arrived. The system in use for the 1937
coronation was the Marconi-EMI 405 line system, the Baird 240 line
system having been discontinued in February of that year.

As they didn't have adjustable delay lines to match the timings, all the
cameras had to be locked to the same clock.

[Mark Carver]

Post by John Williamson

Post by Mary Wolstenholme

I think that was during the 1937 coronation.  It occurred a few minutes
before the OB was due to go live and I think it was caused by a loose
valveholder connection in the synch pulse generator.

What was a synch pulse generator used for in 1937 ?

The same as it was until digital arrived.

Digital equipment still needs a reference Genlock to lock to, nothing
has changed in 90 years with that, digital is magic, but not that magic !

[Chris Youlden]

Post by John Williamson

Post by Mary Wolstenholme

I think that was during the 1937 coronation.  It occurred a few minutes
before the OB was due to go live and I think it was caused by a loose
valveholder connection in the synch pulse generator.

What was a synch pulse generator used for in 1937 ?

The same as it was until digital arrived. The system in use for the 1937
coronation was the Marconi-EMI 405 line system, the Baird 240 line
system having been discontinued in February of that year.
As they didn't have adjustable delay lines to match the timings, all the
cameras had to be locked to the same clock.

More importantly, the cameras would not work unless they were given pulses!

Given that it was monochrome, another way to 'synchronise' sources was
to lock to mains. Then as long as you didn't mix between sources, a cut
would only produce a bit of a wobble with no frame jump.

Often used for OBs in those days. I still have planning sheets on which
it was noted.

Ah, the simplicity of not having to worry about the 4 field system.

[Liz Tuddenham]

Post by John Williamson

Post by Mary Wolstenholme

Post by Liz Tuddenham
I think that was during the 1937 coronation. It occurred a few minutes
before the OB was due to go live and I think it was caused by a loose
valveholder connection in the synch pulse generator.

What was a synch pulse generator used for in 1937 ?

The same as it was until digital arrived. The system in use for the 1937
coronation was the Marconi-EMI 405 line system, the Baird 240 line
system having been discontinued in February of that year.

The parameters were finally decided upon in Mrs. Blumlein's front room
over cups of tea. She invited the EMI team, including A.D. Blumlein's
boss, Isaac Schoenberg, around for Sunday lunch; while they were waiting
for the meal to be cooked, they thrashed out the final details of the
405-line television system.

[tony sayer]

Post by Liz Tuddenham

Post by John Williamson

Post by Mary Wolstenholme

Post by Liz Tuddenham
I think that was during the 1937 coronation. It occurred a few minutes
before the OB was due to go live and I think it was caused by a loose
valveholder connection in the synch pulse generator.

What was a synch pulse generator used for in 1937 ?

The same as it was until digital arrived. The system in use for the 1937
coronation was the Marconi-EMI 405 line system, the Baird 240 line
system having been discontinued in February of that year.

The parameters were finally decided upon in Mrs. Blumlein's front room
over cups of tea. She invited the EMI team, including A.D. Blumlein's
boss, Isaac Schoenberg, around for Sunday lunch; while they were waiting
for the meal to be cooked, they thrashed out the final details of the
405-line television system.

Begs the question what the spec would have been like if decided down the
boozer;?..

[Mark Carver]

Post by Mary Wolstenholme

Post by Liz Tuddenham
I think that was during the 1937 coronation. It occurred a few minutes
before the OB was due to go live and I think it was caused by a loose
valveholder connection in the synch pulse generator.

What was a synch pulse generator used for in 1937 ?

Assuming there was more than one camera, to time them together (just
like today !)

[charles]

Post by Mary Wolstenholme

Post by Liz Tuddenham
I think that was during the 1937 coronation. It occurred a few minutes
before the OB was due to go live and I think it was caused by a loose
valveholder connection in the synch pulse generator.

What was a synch pulse generator used for in 1937 ?

3 cameras needed syncing

[J. P. Gilliver]

Post by Bob Latham

Post by Mark Carver
The fault appears to have involved the handling of the 5.1 audio
streams on BBC 1 HD.

We started to watch on the new BBC1 HD west mid, the only thing we've
watched on there since it came on - give it a try. I noticed that the
TV was not only having sound drop outs but it was also causing the TV
to put the channel info banner up at the top of the screen. At first
I thought this was carrier loss because of the banner, not so but I
don't understand why sound issues like that should make the banner
come up.

You get very strange interactions between apparently unconnected parts
of TV receivers. I have an old Panasonic set with obviously a processor
that's only just up to the task: if programmes are transmitted with the
widescreen flag used properly - as some broadcasters do, such as channel
21 for some Columbo episodes, and TPTV does for a lot of their stuff -
the set switches properly, i. e. it shows 4:3 material pillarboxed -
_unless_ I have subtitles on; if I do, it then ignores the flag, and
shows the material full width, whether it's 4:3 or 16:9 material, i. e.
4:3 material looks squashed. And my other set, I know that the first
time I select a channel after bringing it out of standby, I have to
reverse the first two numbers - so if selecting channel 21, I have to
press 12. Only for the first selection after coming out of standby
though! ("Polaroid" FreeView [HD] box.)

Post by Bob Latham
Sky HD also had the sound going off but I have my SkyQ set to stereo
as the modulators don't like 5.1.
Bob.

Ah, I don't have Sky (or any broadband-borne TV).

[MB]

Post by Mark Carver
I didn't witness the problem, but then I was one of the 6 million people
that didn't use the BBC's coverage.

According to The Sun


"BBC coverage peaked at 15.5 million viewers whilst ITV said an average
of 3.3 million viewers watched the ceremony on ITV1." (for the Coronation)

[J. P. Gilliver]

In message <u3avjq$3t6e4$***@dont-email.me> at Mon, 8 May 2023 15:05:46,
Max Demian <***@bigfoot.com> writes
[]

Post by Max Demian

Post by charles

Post by Bob Latham
Forgive my naivety and ignorance of how it all was supposed to work.
I find it impossible to believe that in all the BBC buildings in the
UK no one was actually watching (with sound on) the broadcast the
nation was lumbered with.

I agree it's unlikely that _nobody_ was, though I imagine _most_ BBC
buildings would have access to better internal signals, and the instinct
would be to use that.

But if anyone _was_ watching "off-air" as it were, and noticed the
dropouts, they'd be to some extent in the same position as the rest of
us - nobody they could tell! Of course, one might hope that BBC premises
_would_ have a line to someone, but there again anyone just watching for
their own pleasure (?) might feel either it wasn't _their_
responsibility to inform, or that it'd be very tedious to do so and
they'd _not_ be thanked.

Post by Max Demian

Post by charles
I watched, at home, from Crystal Palace. and didn't notice anything amiss.

So did I, and there were frequent partial dropouts. Most annoying.

I was on the local transmitter for TN27 0DD - Heathfield I think (I know
it's not Blue Bell Hill, as our aerials all point south). I was watching
101 (BBC1 HD).

[Mark Carver]

Post by J. P. Gilliver
[]

Post by Bob Latham
Forgive my naivety and ignorance of how it all was supposed to work.
I find it impossible to believe that in all the BBC buildings in the
UK no one was actually watching (with sound on) the broadcast the
nation was lumbered with.

I agree it's unlikely that _nobody_ was, though I imagine _most_ BBC
buildings would have access to better internal signals, and the
instinct would be to use that.
But if anyone _was_ watching "off-air" as it were, and noticed the
dropouts, they'd be to some extent in the same position as the rest of
us - nobody they could tell! Of course, one might hope that BBC
premises _would_ have a line to someone, but there again anyone just
watching for their own pleasure (?) might feel either it wasn't
_their_ responsibility to inform, or that it'd be very tedious to do
so and they'd _not_ be thanked.

You make the assumption no one in authority knew or noticed the problem.

I don't know how many live Tx chains you've ever touched (particularly
while 16 million are watching), but you don't start rebooting and
re-patching things unless things get really drastic

I do agree though, for the problem to persist for hours, is poor.

[charles]

Post by Mark Carver

Post by J. P. Gilliver
[]

Post by Bob Latham
Forgive my naivety and ignorance of how it all was supposed to work.
I find it impossible to believe that in all the BBC buildings in the
UK no one was actually watching (with sound on) the broadcast the
nation was lumbered with.

I agree it's unlikely that _nobody_ was, though I imagine _most_ BBC
buildings would have access to better internal signals, and the
instinct would be to use that.
But if anyone _was_ watching "off-air" as it were, and noticed the
dropouts, they'd be to some extent in the same position as the rest of
us - nobody they could tell! Of course, one might hope that BBC
premises _would_ have a line to someone, but there again anyone just
watching for their own pleasure (?) might feel either it wasn't
_their_ responsibility to inform, or that it'd be very tedious to do
so and they'd _not_ be thanked.

You make the assumption no one in authority knew or noticed the problem.
I don't know how many live Tx chains you've ever touched (particularly
while 16 million are watching), but you don't start rebooting and
re-patching things unless things get really drastic
I do agree though, for the problem to persist for hours, is poor.

There is also the point that on a Grade 1 programme, with so many belts and
braces, you aren't quite sure what is doing what. And, Yes, I've been in
CAR during many of them.

[Chris Youlden]

Post by Mark Carver

Post by J. P. Gilliver
[]

Post by Bob Latham
Forgive my naivety and ignorance of how it all was supposed to work.
I find it impossible to believe that in all the BBC buildings in the
UK no one was actually watching (with sound on) the broadcast the
nation was lumbered with.

I agree it's unlikely that _nobody_ was, though I imagine _most_ BBC
buildings would have access to better internal signals, and the
instinct would be to use that.
But if anyone _was_ watching "off-air" as it were, and noticed the
dropouts, they'd be to some extent in the same position as the rest of
us - nobody they could tell! Of course, one might hope that BBC
premises _would_ have a line to someone, but there again anyone just
watching for their own pleasure (?) might feel either it wasn't
_their_ responsibility to inform, or that it'd be very tedious to do
so and they'd _not_ be thanked.

You make the assumption no one in authority knew or noticed the problem.
I don't know how many live Tx chains you've ever touched (particularly
while 16 million are watching), but you don't start rebooting and
re-patching things unless things get really drastic

Absolutely. I suspect that it turned out to be a strange problem to
pinpoint. The OB would not be aware of it (they had far more to do than
listen off-air, and OBs should not usually monitor off-air). BBC1 Pres
(Red Bee) would have been unaware as they would be presumably
listening/watching incoming, and outgoing prior to coding. So then it's
down to 16 million people, who will think all sorts, but not phone in
because there's nowhere to report it.

--
Chris

[NY]

Post by charles
I watched, at home, from Crystal Palace. and didn't notice anything amiss.

It so happened that my wife and I were on a cruise on Coronation Day, so
we watched the events (from the BBC feed) in appalling picture quality
(*) on the TV in our cabin, as the ship made its merry way between
Germany and Finland.

I wasn't aware of any sound or picture dropouts - and I was expecting
them if the ship happened to roll and its satellite dish servo couldn't
track the geostationary satellite perfectly.

(*) Probably due to the ship's dire analogue cable feed to the cabins -
multipath ghosting, random fluttering, nasty clipping of highlights...
on locally-generated signals as well as those received by satellite.

[tony sayer]

Post by NY

Post by charles
I watched, at home, from Crystal Palace. and didn't notice anything amiss.

It so happened that my wife and I were on a cruise on Coronation Day, so
we watched the events (from the BBC feed) in appalling picture quality
(*) on the TV in our cabin, as the ship made its merry way between
Germany and Finland.
I wasn't aware of any sound or picture dropouts - and I was expecting
them if the ship happened to roll and its satellite dish servo couldn't
track the geostationary satellite perfectly.
(*) Probably due to the ship's dire analogue cable feed to the cabins -
multipath ghosting, random fluttering, nasty clipping of highlights...
on locally-generated signals as well as those received by satellite.

Very authentic, Probably a bit like what the viewers saw at Queen Liz's
crowning!!

[NY]

Post by tony sayer

Post by NY

Post by charles
I watched, at home, from Crystal Palace. and didn't notice anything amiss.

It so happened that my wife and I were on a cruise on Coronation Day, so
we watched the events (from the BBC feed) in appalling picture quality
(*) on the TV in our cabin, as the ship made its merry way between
Germany and Finland.
I wasn't aware of any sound or picture dropouts - and I was expecting
them if the ship happened to roll and its satellite dish servo couldn't
track the geostationary satellite perfectly.
(*) Probably due to the ship's dire analogue cable feed to the cabins -
multipath ghosting, random fluttering, nasty clipping of highlights...
on locally-generated signals as well as those received by satellite.

Very authentic, Probably a bit like what the viewers saw at Queen Liz's
crowning!!

At least I was seeing it in colour.


I saw a documentary from about 10 years ago about Liz's coronation, and
the head of OB (now a very old man) was describing the restrictions that
had been placed on him by the "man from the Palace" who sounded a right
pompous killjoy. The BBC were ordered only to use wide shots. "Bugger
that for a game of soldiers", the BBC OB man thought, and he sneaked in
a few long lenses and surreptitiously fitted them to the turrets of some
of the cameras - and so were able to show close-ups that the Palace man
had banned him from doing. By the time it was broadcast, it was too
late, wasn't it?

I was surprised that even in 2023, we were not allowed to know what the
annointing ceremony involves. Apparently at the time of Liz's
coronation, the BBC were intending to show actors portraying what the
Archbishop was doing to the Queen (oooo Matronnnnnnnn) to fill in the
dead air while the privacy screens were drawn, but even *that* was
forbidden.

[Max Demian]

Post by NY
I saw a documentary from about 10 years ago about Liz's coronation, and
the head of OB (now a very old man) was describing the restrictions that
had been placed on him by the "man from the Palace" who sounded a right
pompous killjoy. The BBC were ordered only to use wide shots. "Bugger
that for a game of soldiers", the BBC OB man thought, and he sneaked in
a few long lenses and surreptitiously fitted them to the turrets of some
of the cameras - and so were able to show close-ups that the Palace man
had banned him from doing. By the time it was broadcast, it was too
late, wasn't it?
I was surprised that even in 2023, we were not allowed to know what the
annointing ceremony involves. Apparently at the time of Liz's
coronation, the BBC were intending to show actors portraying what the
Archbishop was doing to the Queen (oooo Matronnnnnnnn) to fill in the
dead air while the privacy screens were drawn, but even *that* was
forbidden.

We *are* allowed to know, and were told what the anointing involved. We
just weren't allowed to see it on our TV screens. There are lots of
things like that.

[Max Demian]

Post by charles

Post by Bob Latham

Post by J. P. Gilliver

Post by Bob Latham

Post by Mark Carver
Which probably suggests the fault was downstream of the BBC's
domestic pres truck, but upstream of the code and mux stage. My
guess, the link between the on site BBC pres truck (and not the
one producing the 'World Feed') and the playout centre in W12

I'm really disappointed by this. They had months to prepare and
test. Months to get redundancy and monitoring in place and yet
they failed miserably to sort it on the day. Unbelievably, the
shambles continued into last night's concert.
Inexcusable, heads should roll.

As I said earlier, I suspect it's a matter of monitoring being
either in the wrong place, or not done; the test design thus being
at fault. If the fault was downstream from where any monitoring,
they wouldn't know there _was_ a fault (monitoring in wrong place);
if nobody was monitoring the audio at all, only the pictures,
that's bad too.

Forgive my naivety and ignorance of how it all was supposed to work.
I find it impossible to believe that in all the BBC buildings in the
UK no one was actually watching (with sound on) the broadcast the
nation was lumbered with.

I watched, at home, from Crystal Palace. and didn't notice anything amiss.

Which LCN, 1 or 101?

It's been suggested that the (obvious) defects only occurred on the BBC1
HD channel, and may have been something to do with the 5.1 (i.e.surround
sound) feed. I definitely had it (CP LCN 101) but I don't have any
surround sound kit.

Complete silence from BBC as yet that I know of.

[Max Demian]

Post by MB

Post by Tweed
On BBC One via satellite there seems to be occasional breakups of the sound
from Westminster Abbey this morning. Picture not affected.

I was going to ask also - I am watching Freeview.
Seems to on louder bits of sound?

Occasionally dodgy even on the ambience.

[Phil]

Post by Tweed
On BBC One via satellite there seems to be occasional breakups of the sound
from Westminster Abbey this morning. Picture not affected.

On noticing this I switched from satellite to terrestrial where it was
just the same.

[Liz Tuddenham]

Post by Phil

Post by Tweed
On BBC One via satellite there seems to be occasional breakups of the sound
from Westminster Abbey this morning. Picture not affected.

On noticing this I switched from satellite to terrestrial where it was
just the same.

Weirdly I heard a French station on shortwave (around 28 Mc/s)
describing the ceremony and the studio audio on that was cutting out
intermittently, even though they weren't taking any sound from the
ceremony. Is it just a strange coincidence or was there a bigger fault
with more widespread consequences?

[Dickie mint]

Post by Tweed
On BBC One via satellite there seems to be occasional breakups of the sound
from Westminster Abbey this morning. Picture not affected.

On a facebook group with on the day OB staff as members it was thought
to be a faulty 5.1 coder at Red Bee C & M.

Though with two C & M centres, geographically seperate, each one feeding
half the UK it should have been possible to swith all UK feeds to one of
them. It should also have been possible to change over to a hot spare
chain.

All depends on someone hearing the problem and knowing how to solve it!

It's the brave new no BBC engineers in sight world.....

[Mark Carver]

Post by Dickie mint

Post by Tweed
On BBC One via satellite there seems to be occasional breakups of the sound
from Westminster Abbey this morning. Picture not affected.

On a facebook group with on the day OB staff as members it was thought
to be a faulty 5.1 coder at Red Bee C & M.
Though with two C & M centres, geographically seperate, each one
feeding half the UK it should have been possible to swith all UK feeds
to one of them.  It should also have been possible to change over to a
hot spare chain.

Which indeed was exactly what they did on the day 18 months ago when
there was that catastrophe at Red Bee in W12. Nothing more than a click
was noticeable to the punters

[MB]

Post by Dickie mint
All depends on someone hearing the problem and knowing how to solve it!

Didn't it used to be the rule that there was an ordinary TV set
somewhere as a check, it is after all the ultimate test.

People have far too much faith in the digital systems indicating no
faults, not just in the broadcast world but also with telecom systems.

On top of that any faults cane be muted and so making it look as if all OK.

[Mark Carver]

Post by MB

Post by Dickie mint
All depends on someone hearing the problem and knowing how to solve it!

Didn't it used to be the rule that there was an ordinary TV set
somewhere as a check, it is after all the ultimate test.

There's none such thing these days, and what with SD, HD,UHD, D-Sat,
DTT, mono, stereo, 5.1 surround etc etc a multitude of different things
to check

[MB]

Post by Mark Carver
There's none such thing these days, and what with SD, HD,UHD, D-Sat,
DTT, mono, stereo, 5.1 surround etc etc a multitude of different things
to check

I would have more faith in someone listening to one of those rather that
relying on there been no alarms on a screen somewhere.

[charles]

Post by MB

Post by Dickie mint
All depends on someone hearing the problem and knowing how to solve it!

Didn't it used to be the rule that there was an ordinary TV set
somewhere as a check, it is after all the ultimate test.

in the 1960s, there was a quality check position.

Post by MB
People have far too much faith in the digital systems indicating no
faults, not just in the broadcast world but also with telecom systems.
On top of that any faults cane be muted and so making it look as if all OK.

[MB]

Post by charles
in the 1960s, there was a quality check position.

Yes I was taken in Quality Check Rooms by someone who I knew from
university and was then working in SPID.

[tony sayer]

In article <u3e4ig$bgor$***@dont-email.me>, MB <***@nospam.net> scribeth
thus

Post by MB

Post by Dickie mint
All depends on someone hearing the problem and knowing how to solve it!

Didn't it used to be the rule that there was an ordinary TV set
somewhere as a check, it is after all the ultimate test.
People have far too much faith in the digital systems indicating no
faults, not just in the broadcast world but also with telecom systems.
On top of that any faults cane be muted and so making it look as if all OK.

And someone watching online like many must have done. It wasn't that
good audio quality either!...