BBC4 "new" idle card? (and iPlayer plug of course)

[J. P. Gilliver]

I just selected BBC4 (sorry, "BBC FOUR"), forgetting it wasn't on this
time of day.

I see they've changed the "card" - may have changed it months ago, but
obviously I don't see it that often!; it's now plain white text (and
logos) on (dark) blue, not the old white on black that included
something like "if you can still see programming through this, change
channel and come back", or similar.

Of course, the new text includes "You can watch BBC Four programmes at
any time on BBC iPlayer on your TV", which of course is untrue (I wonder
for what proportion of the viewership, especially of BBC4)?

[In other words, I wonder what proportion of TV sets actually in use are
both "smart" and actually connected.]

[Theo]

Post by J. P. Gilliver
Of course, the new text includes "You can watch BBC Four programmes at
any time on BBC iPlayer on your TV", which of course is untrue (I wonder
for what proportion of the viewership, especially of BBC4)?
[In other words, I wonder what proportion of TV sets actually in use are
both "smart" and actually connected.]

You can buy a box for a few tens of pounds to plug into your TV, which
allows you to watch iPlayer on your dumb TV. I've done so for a CRT TV -
needed an extra HDMI to SCART converter as the box only had HDMI and the TV
only had analogue inputs. But it worked fine.

So the statement is true: you *can*, you may just have to buy extra hardware
to do so. (and have an internet connection, of course)

Theo

[J. P. Gilliver]

Post by Theo

Post by J. P. Gilliver
Of course, the new text includes "You can watch BBC Four programmes at
any time on BBC iPlayer on your TV", which of course is untrue (I wonder
for what proportion of the viewership, especially of BBC4)?
[In other words, I wonder what proportion of TV sets actually in use are
both "smart" and actually connected.]

You can buy a box for a few tens of pounds to plug into your TV, which
allows you to watch iPlayer on your dumb TV. I've done so for a CRT TV -
needed an extra HDMI to SCART converter as the box only had HDMI and the TV
only had analogue inputs. But it worked fine.
So the statement is true: you *can*, you may just have to buy extra hardware
to do so. (and have an internet connection, of course)
Theo

In other words, you can watch iPlayer on your MONITOR, if you shell out
a few tens of pounds, and possibly more for an adaptor, AND have an
internet connection.

You can watch DVDs "on your TV" too. But not unless it has a DVD player
built-in or connected.

[Brian Gaff]

Is this not the same logic that assumes everyone has a smart phone and can
use it? I despair when I note that tickets can only be bought via eventbrite
and shown on the screen of your phone when attending.
Somebody needs to force the powers that be to acknowledge there are
citizens who do not have smart anythings or the internet.. Or is the whole
reason for phasing out land lines via copper a ploy to give everyone
broadband whether they want it or not?
How broad is your band?
Brian
--
--:
This newsgroup posting comes to you directly from...
The Sofa of Brian Gaff...
***@blueyonder.co.uk
Blind user, so no pictures please
Note this Signature is meaningless.!

Post by Theo

Post by J. P. Gilliver
Of course, the new text includes "You can watch BBC Four programmes at
any time on BBC iPlayer on your TV", which of course is untrue (I wonder
for what proportion of the viewership, especially of BBC4)?
[In other words, I wonder what proportion of TV sets actually in use are
both "smart" and actually connected.]

You can buy a box for a few tens of pounds to plug into your TV, which
allows you to watch iPlayer on your dumb TV. I've done so for a CRT TV -
needed an extra HDMI to SCART converter as the box only had HDMI and the TV
only had analogue inputs. But it worked fine.
So the statement is true: you *can*, you may just have to buy extra hardware
to do so. (and have an internet connection, of course)
Theo

In other words, you can watch iPlayer on your MONITOR, if you shell out a
few tens of pounds, and possibly more for an adaptor, AND have an internet
connection.
You can watch DVDs "on your TV" too. But not unless it has a DVD player
built-in or connected.
--
I don't like that word [atheist]; it implies that there's a god not to believe
in - Eric Idle, quoted in RT 2016/12/10-16

[Liz Tuddenham]

Post by Brian Gaff
.. Or is the whole
reason for phasing out land lines via copper a ploy to give everyone
broadband whether they want it or not?

I suspect they are predicting that the price of copper will rise due to
the demand for electric cars. They are ripping out plant as fast as
they can to make a killing on the copper market before the politicians
come to their senses and realise that electric cars are actually making
the environmental prolems worse.

[Andy Burns]

is the whole reason for phasing out land lines via copper a ploy to
give everyone broadband whether they want it or not?

Well, the BBC are now floating the idea to add the TV licence onto
broadband prices ...

[Stephen Wolstenholme]

Post by Andy Burns

is the whole reason for phasing out land lines via copper a ploy to
give everyone broadband whether they want it or not?

Well, the BBC are now floating the idea to add the TV licence onto
broadband prices ...

That will only apply to iPlayer users and I'm not one of them.

[Mark Carver]

Post by Stephen Wolstenholme

Post by Andy Burns

is the whole reason for phasing out land lines via copper a ploy to
give everyone broadband whether they want it or not?

Well, the BBC are now floating the idea to add the TV licence onto
broadband prices ...

That will only apply to iPlayer users and I'm not one of them.

I think you'll find that the idea is a levy will be added to ALL
broadband contracts, so it's irrelevant whether or not you use iplayer.

A bit like all those schools you pay for via council tax, despite having
no children ?

[Robin]

Post by Mark Carver

Post by Stephen Wolstenholme

Post by Andy Burns

is the whole reason for phasing out land lines via copper a ploy to
give everyone broadband whether they want it or not?

Well, the BBC are now floating the idea to add the TV licence onto
broadband prices ...

That will only apply to iPlayer users and I'm not one of them.

I think you'll find that the idea is a levy will be added to ALL
broadband contracts, so it's irrelevant whether or not you use iplayer.

Yep. Idea's been around a while. BBC floated it in March 2020. As with
most wizzy ideas for new taxes, no details - e.g. mobile as well as
wire/fibre? Flat rate or % of broadband fee or what? (E.g. what about
household with fibre + 4 mobile contracts? What about the employer-paid
contract for WTF?) But I suspect the killer argument is one the HoL made
last year: could end up no more progressive than the licence fee and may
discourage poor households from having broadband with nasty effects on
kids education.

[Andy Burns]

As with most wizzy ideas for new taxes, no details - e.g. mobile as well
as wire/fibre? Flat rate or % of broadband fee or what?

Maybe they fancy linking the licence price to something that's on the
inflation+X% model?

[Max Demian]

Post by Andy Burns

As with most wizzy ideas for new taxes, no details - e.g. mobile as
well as wire/fibre? Flat rate or % of broadband fee or what?

Maybe they fancy linking the licence price to something that's on the
inflation+X% model?

I note that no-one's found where the 3.9% as in inflation+3.9% comes
from. A rather odd figure.

[Theo]

Post by Max Demian

Post by Andy Burns

As with most wizzy ideas for new taxes, no details - e.g. mobile as
well as wire/fibre? Flat rate or % of broadband fee or what?

Maybe they fancy linking the licence price to something that's on the
inflation+X% model?

I note that no-one's found where the 3.9% as in inflation+3.9% comes
from. A rather odd figure.

BT came up with it, and everyone else decided they didn't want to 'miss a
revenue opportunity' by picking a lower figure:

https://www.theguardian.com/business/2023/jun/27/why-are-uk-telecoms-firms-imposing-inflation-busting-bills

[J. P. Gilliver]

Post by Theo

Post by Max Demian

Post by Andy Burns

As with most wizzy ideas for new taxes, no details - e.g. mobile as
well as wire/fibre? Flat rate or % of broadband fee or what?

Maybe they fancy linking the licence price to something that's on the
inflation+X% model?

I note that no-one's found where the 3.9% as in inflation+3.9% comes
from. A rather odd figure.

BT came up with it, and everyone else decided they didn't want to 'miss a
https://www.theguardian.com/business/2023/jun/27/why-are-uk-telecoms-fir
ms-imposing-inflation-busting-bills

Yes, it's pretty universal (PlusNet been doing it since 2020, as with
several of the others in the table in the above). Just seems an odd
figure - the .9 part gives the feeling it's just under some threshold or
something.

[Tweed]

Post by Robin

Post by Mark Carver

Post by Stephen Wolstenholme

Post by Andy Burns

is the whole reason for phasing out land lines via copper a ploy to
give everyone broadband whether they want it or not?

Well, the BBC are now floating the idea to add the TV licence onto
broadband prices ...

That will only apply to iPlayer users and I'm not one of them.

I think you'll find that the idea is a levy will be added to ALL
broadband contracts, so it's irrelevant whether or not you use iplayer.

Yep. Idea's been around a while. BBC floated it in March 2020. As with
most wizzy ideas for new taxes, no details - e.g. mobile as well as
wire/fibre? Flat rate or % of broadband fee or what? (E.g. what about
household with fibre + 4 mobile contracts? What about the employer-paid
contract for WTF?) But I suspect the killer argument is one the HoL made
last year: could end up no more progressive than the licence fee and may
discourage poor households from having broadband with nasty effects on
kids education.

It will end up on the council tax, just as Police, Fire etc are added. Easy
to administer and hard to avoid. CT has reductions for single person
households, the hard up etc.

[Robin]

Post by Tweed

Post by Robin

Post by Mark Carver

Post by Stephen Wolstenholme

Post by Andy Burns

is the whole reason for phasing out land lines via copper a ploy to
give everyone broadband whether they want it or not?

Well, the BBC are now floating the idea to add the TV licence onto
broadband prices ...

That will only apply to iPlayer users and I'm not one of them.

I think you'll find that the idea is a levy will be added to ALL
broadband contracts, so it's irrelevant whether or not you use iplayer.

Yep. Idea's been around a while. BBC floated it in March 2020. As with
most wizzy ideas for new taxes, no details - e.g. mobile as well as
wire/fibre? Flat rate or % of broadband fee or what? (E.g. what about
household with fibre + 4 mobile contracts? What about the employer-paid
contract for WTF?) But I suspect the killer argument is one the HoL made
last year: could end up no more progressive than the licence fee and may
discourage poor households from having broadband with nasty effects on
kids education.

It will end up on the council tax, just as Police, Fire etc are added. Easy
to administer and hard to avoid. CT has reductions for single person
households, the hard up etc.

I've not seen the proponents of that address the fact that local
taxation is a devolved matter. (Hence e.g. there is no council tax in NI.)

[Tweed]

Post by Robin

Post by Tweed

Post by Robin

Post by Mark Carver

Post by Stephen Wolstenholme

Post by Andy Burns

is the whole reason for phasing out land lines via copper a ploy to
give everyone broadband whether they want it or not?

Well, the BBC are now floating the idea to add the TV licence onto
broadband prices ...

That will only apply to iPlayer users and I'm not one of them.

I think you'll find that the idea is a levy will be added to ALL
broadband contracts, so it's irrelevant whether or not you use iplayer.

Yep. Idea's been around a while. BBC floated it in March 2020. As with
most wizzy ideas for new taxes, no details - e.g. mobile as well as
wire/fibre? Flat rate or % of broadband fee or what? (E.g. what about
household with fibre + 4 mobile contracts? What about the employer-paid
contract for WTF?) But I suspect the killer argument is one the HoL made
last year: could end up no more progressive than the licence fee and may
discourage poor households from having broadband with nasty effects on
kids education.

It will end up on the council tax, just as Police, Fire etc are added. Easy
to administer and hard to avoid. CT has reductions for single person
households, the hard up etc.

I've not seen the proponents of that address the fact that local
taxation is a devolved matter. (Hence e.g. there is no council tax in NI.)

Ok, let’s rephrase that as it will be added to your local property tax.
Germany manages it and they are very devolved.

[Robin]

Post by Tweed

Post by Robin

Post by Tweed

Post by Robin

Post by Mark Carver

Post by Stephen Wolstenholme

Post by Andy Burns

is the whole reason for phasing out land lines via copper a ploy to
give everyone broadband whether they want it or not?

Well, the BBC are now floating the idea to add the TV licence onto
broadband prices ...

That will only apply to iPlayer users and I'm not one of them.

I think you'll find that the idea is a levy will be added to ALL
broadband contracts, so it's irrelevant whether or not you use iplayer.

Yep. Idea's been around a while. BBC floated it in March 2020. As with
most wizzy ideas for new taxes, no details - e.g. mobile as well as
wire/fibre? Flat rate or % of broadband fee or what? (E.g. what about
household with fibre + 4 mobile contracts? What about the employer-paid
contract for WTF?) But I suspect the killer argument is one the HoL made
last year: could end up no more progressive than the licence fee and may
discourage poor households from having broadband with nasty effects on
kids education.

It will end up on the council tax, just as Police, Fire etc are added. Easy
to administer and hard to avoid. CT has reductions for single person
households, the hard up etc.

I've not seen the proponents of that address the fact that local
taxation is a devolved matter. (Hence e.g. there is no council tax in NI.)

Ok, let’s rephrase that as it will be added to your local property tax.
Germany manages it and they are very devolved.

That's exactly *not* what Germany does.

Germany charges a flat rate licence fee[1] - currently 18.36 euros per
month - per household. There are exemptions - e.g. for those getting
some means-tested benefits, disabled and students on grants. But
otherwise it's the same, flat rate whether the household is pensioner
living alone in a studio flat or a family of 6 in a Regents Park
mansion. That's the antithesis of what most proponents of using the
council tax want - a progressive charge.

And the fee is not added to local property tax. It's paid direct to the
"Beitragsservice"




[1] NB the term they use - see
https://www.rundfunkbeitrag.de/welcome/englisch/index_ger.html#the_licence_fee

[Tweed]

Post by Robin

Post by Tweed

Post by Robin

Post by Tweed

Post by Robin

Post by Mark Carver

Post by Stephen Wolstenholme

Post by Andy Burns

is the whole reason for phasing out land lines via copper a ploy to
give everyone broadband whether they want it or not?

Well, the BBC are now floating the idea to add the TV licence onto
broadband prices ...

That will only apply to iPlayer users and I'm not one of them.

I think you'll find that the idea is a levy will be added to ALL
broadband contracts, so it's irrelevant whether or not you use iplayer.

Yep. Idea's been around a while. BBC floated it in March 2020. As with
most wizzy ideas for new taxes, no details - e.g. mobile as well as
wire/fibre? Flat rate or % of broadband fee or what? (E.g. what about
household with fibre + 4 mobile contracts? What about the employer-paid
contract for WTF?) But I suspect the killer argument is one the HoL made
last year: could end up no more progressive than the licence fee and may
discourage poor households from having broadband with nasty effects on
kids education.

It will end up on the council tax, just as Police, Fire etc are added. Easy
to administer and hard to avoid. CT has reductions for single person
households, the hard up etc.

I've not seen the proponents of that address the fact that local
taxation is a devolved matter. (Hence e.g. there is no council tax in NI.)

Ok, let’s rephrase that as it will be added to your local property tax.
Germany manages it and they are very devolved.

That's exactly *not* what Germany does.
Germany charges a flat rate licence fee[1] - currently 18.36 euros per
month - per household. There are exemptions - e.g. for those getting
some means-tested benefits, disabled and students on grants. But
otherwise it's the same, flat rate whether the household is pensioner
living alone in a studio flat or a family of 6 in a Regents Park
mansion. That's the antithesis of what most proponents of using the
council tax want - a progressive charge.
And the fee is not added to local property tax. It's paid direct to the
"Beitragsservice"
[1] NB the term they use - see
https://www.rundfunkbeitrag.de/welcome/englisch/index_ger.html#the_licence_fee

Ah, things have changed since I lived in Germany 40 years ago.
Anyway, I’m fairly sure the BBC will end up being paid for from domestic
property taxes. A broadband tax is far too complicated.

[J. P. Gilliver]

In message <u8hqg9$2kg3u$***@dont-email.me> at Mon, 10 Jul 2023 20:42:49,
Tweed <***@gmail.com> writes
[]

Post by Tweed
Ah, things have changed since I lived in Germany 40 years ago.
Anyway, I’m fairly sure the BBC will end up being paid for from domestic
property taxes. A broadband tax is far too complicated.

Given there are big changes coming _anyway_, with the end of POTS, I can
see the _possibility_ of a new universal "broadband obligation". I
suspect it won't happen, but (IMO, of course) I think it'd on balance be
a Good Thing. Whether the BBC could be incorporated at the same time is
another question (and I can see both sides of that one).

[MB]

Post by Robin
I've not seen the proponents of that address the fact that local
taxation is a devolved matter. (Hence e.g. there is no council tax in NI.)

In Scotland, don't the SNP tend to often not enforce enforcement of
non-payment of council tax?

[Stephen Wolstenholme]

On Mon, 10 Jul 2023 15:09:31 +0100, Mark Carver

Post by Mark Carver

Post by Stephen Wolstenholme

Post by Andy Burns

is the whole reason for phasing out land lines via copper a ploy to
give everyone broadband whether they want it or not?

Well, the BBC are now floating the idea to add the TV licence onto
broadband prices ...

That will only apply to iPlayer users and I'm not one of them.

I think you'll find that the idea is a levy will be added to ALL
broadband contracts, so it's irrelevant whether or not you use iplayer.
A bit like all those schools you pay for via council tax, despite having
no children ?

I was only talking about BBC. So far as I know iPlayer is their only
contribution to the broadband world. My TV does not have broadband. My
PC does not have TV.

[Andy Burns]

Post by Stephen Wolstenholme

Post by Andy Burns
the BBC are now floating the idea to add the TV licence onto
broadband prices ...

That will only apply to iPlayer users and I'm not one of them.

That's not how I took it, I've not listened to the podcast, but

<https://www.telegraph.co.uk/politics/2023/07/07/wealthier-households-pay-more-bbc-licence-fee-richard-sharp/>

[J. P. Gilliver]

Post by Brian Gaff
Is this not the same logic that assumes everyone has a smart phone and can
use it? I despair when I note that tickets can only be bought via eventbrite
and shown on the screen of your phone when attending.
Somebody needs to force the powers that be to acknowledge there are
citizens who do not have smart anythings or the internet.. Or is the whole
reason for phasing out land lines via copper a ploy to give everyone
broadband whether they want it or not?
How broad is your band?
Brian

The word you slipped in - unintentionally, I'm sure - is "give".

*IF* the solution _is_ to actually _give_ everyone broadband - i. e.
provide it at no more than the line rental charge - then I'd accept it*,
but I very much doubt either the government or the ISPs have any
intention of doing away with that revenue stream. I've thought for some
time that the splitting of the charge into line rental and broadband is
increasingly arbitrary (and leads to many dishonest marketing
practices), but without legislation - from a government that knows what
it's doing, so that's a pipedream - it won't happen.

*Yes, even universal broadband would far from solve everything, but I'd
withdraw a lot of my objections.

[Theo]

Post by J. P. Gilliver
*IF* the solution _is_ to actually _give_ everyone broadband - i. e.
provide it at no more than the line rental charge - then I'd accept it*,
but I very much doubt either the government or the ISPs have any
intention of doing away with that revenue stream. I've thought for some
time that the splitting of the charge into line rental and broadband is
increasingly arbitrary (and leads to many dishonest marketing
practices), but without legislation - from a government that knows what
it's doing, so that's a pipedream - it won't happen.

Splitting broadband and line rental for marketing purposes has been banned
since 2016:
https://www.ispreview.co.uk/index.php/2016/05/advert-watchdog-forces-uk-isps-include-line-rental-broadband-price.html

(there may be non-marketing places it still lurks, eg pricing breakdowns on
customers bills. But those breakdowns are largely fictional)

Theo

[Roderick Stewart]

On 11 Jul 2023 12:10:09 +0100 (BST), Theo

Post by Theo
Splitting broadband and line rental for marketing purposes has been banned
https://www.ispreview.co.uk/index.php/2016/05/advert-watchdog-forces-uk-isps-include-line-rental-broadband-price.html

Soon to be irrelevant, as there won't be a line to rent.

Rod.

[NY]

Post by Roderick Stewart
On 11 Jul 2023 12:10:09 +0100 (BST), Theo

Post by Theo
Splitting broadband and line rental for marketing purposes has been banned
https://www.ispreview.co.uk/index.php/2016/05/advert-watchdog-forces-uk-isps-include-line-rental-broadband-price.html

Soon to be irrelevant, as there won't be a line to rent.

Won't there? What about people with FTTP (after POTS has been withdrawn) who
only want a phone line for phone calls and don't need/want broadband? Will
they be charged a lower monthly charge than some who wants broadband? How
are VOIP phone calls charged? I imagine if VOIP costs money, there will be a
rise in Skype etc calls - though I imagine many people already use Skype for
international calls, even if it's initiated as an email to say "Can you be
at your computer at xx:00 GMT so I can call you by Skype". I presume Skype
etc has made a big dent into phone call revenues, especially international
ones where calls charges are higher and are not covered by call plans.

[Theo]

Post by NY

Post by Roderick Stewart
On 11 Jul 2023 12:10:09 +0100 (BST), Theo

Post by Theo
Splitting broadband and line rental for marketing purposes has been banned
https://www.ispreview.co.uk/index.php/2016/05/advert-watchdog-forces-uk-isps-include-line-rental-broadband-price.html

Soon to be irrelevant, as there won't be a line to rent.

Won't there? What about people with FTTP (after POTS has been withdrawn) who
only want a phone line for phone calls and don't need/want broadband? Will
they be charged a lower monthly charge than some who wants broadband? How
are VOIP phone calls charged? I imagine if VOIP costs money, there will be a
rise in Skype etc calls - though I imagine many people already use Skype for
international calls, even if it's initiated as an email to say "Can you be
at your computer at xx:00 GMT so I can call you by Skype". I presume Skype
etc has made a big dent into phone call revenues, especially international
ones where calls charges are higher and are not covered by call plans.

They will offer you a 512Kbps broadband service and a router into which you
plug in your phone to get digital voice service. I'm not sure whether you
get access to the broadband on that tariff or whether they disable those
interfaces of the router.

Once upon a time 'line rental' was purely the standing charge for a phone
service, but in the last 20 years it's become this weird bucket into which
ISPs throw charges they want to hide ('free broadband*' - not it isn't free,
you just threw the cost into the line rental bucket and hoped we didn't
notice).

On FTTP we're back to the situation where you just pay a monthly standing
charge for the connection and it doesn't matter what kind of traffic you
put over it (internet, phone, TV, etc). Whether that's called line rental
or something else doesn't really matter.

Whether you'll pay less for a phone-only FTTP service remains to be seen - I
don't think deploying that has been a priority while copper lines are still
in place. No doubt that will change as copper is decommissioned.

Theo

[J. P. Gilliver]

Post by Roderick Stewart
On 11 Jul 2023 12:10:09 +0100 (BST), Theo

Post by Theo
Splitting broadband and line rental for marketing purposes has been banned
https://www.ispreview.co.uk/index.php/2016/05/advert-watchdog-forces-uk
-isps-include-line-rental-broadband-price.html

Soon to be irrelevant, as there won't be a line to rent.
Rod.

There will be a line - either fibre or copper. Whether charging
separately for its rental will cease (as I think it already has for FTTC
people), we'll have to wait to see - I hope so.

Where the service provision is a flat fee (not usage-dependent), having
a separate component for the "line rental" is silly, and confusing. In
the days when we paid for usage - in the original case, paying for
'phone calls (and early broadband where it was per megabyte, but that
was IIRR never very common), then having a separate fee to cover
maintenance made sense, or at least was acceptable.

[Roderick Stewart]

On Tue, 11 Jul 2023 12:50:41 +0100, "J. P. Gilliver"

Post by J. P. Gilliver

Post by Roderick Stewart
On 11 Jul 2023 12:10:09 +0100 (BST), Theo

Post by Theo
Splitting broadband and line rental for marketing purposes has been banned
https://www.ispreview.co.uk/index.php/2016/05/advert-watchdog-forces-uk
-isps-include-line-rental-broadband-price.html

Soon to be irrelevant, as there won't be a line to rent.
Rod.

There will be a line - either fibre or copper. Whether charging
separately for its rental will cease (as I think it already has for FTTC
people), we'll have to wait to see - I hope so.

Eventually it will all be fibre. It may take some time, but they won't
want the cost and inconvenience of coping with two systems.

Rod.

[J. P. Gilliver]

Post by Roderick Stewart
On Tue, 11 Jul 2023 12:50:41 +0100, "J. P. Gilliver"

[]

Post by Roderick Stewart

Post by J. P. Gilliver
There will be a line - either fibre or copper. Whether charging
separately for its rental will cease (as I think it already has for FTTC
people), we'll have to wait to see - I hope so.

Eventually it will all be fibre. It may take some time, but they won't
want the cost and inconvenience of coping with two systems.
Rod.

(The point about separate charging remains. Though I don't know if
anyone already on fibre is paying a separate "line rental" [fibre rental
if you wish] charge.)

There's an awful lot of copper (or aluminium etc.) about - and it'll be
a huge job, changing all the connections - digging trenches (some wires
will have been buried for a lot of a century), sorting out access to
people's premises, sorting out wayleaves (where the wire crosses a third
party's land - or communal property, e. g. in blocks of flats), and so
on. I imagine the cost of coping with two systems will be pretty minimal
compared to the cost of sorting that lot out, and won't be seen as
significant until the copper percentage is pretty tiny (which I very
much doubt it is now).

[Robin]

Post by J. P. Gilliver

Post by Roderick Stewart
On Tue, 11 Jul 2023 12:50:41 +0100, "J. P. Gilliver"

[]

Post by Roderick Stewart

Post by J. P. Gilliver
There will be a line - either fibre or copper. Whether charging
separately for its rental will cease (as I think it already has for FTTC
people), we'll have to wait to see - I hope so.

Eventually it will all be fibre. It may take some time, but they won't
want the cost and inconvenience of coping with two systems.
Rod.

(The point about separate charging remains. Though I don't know if
anyone already on fibre is paying a separate "line rental" [fibre rental
if you wish] charge.)
There's an awful lot of copper (or aluminium etc.) about - and it'll be
a huge job, changing all the connections - digging trenches (some wires
will have been buried for a lot of a century), sorting out access to
people's premises, sorting out wayleaves (where the wire crosses a third
party's land - or communal property, e. g. in blocks of flats), and so
on. I imagine the cost of coping with two systems will be pretty minimal
compared to the cost of sorting that lot out, and won't be seen as
significant until the copper percentage is pretty tiny (which I very
much doubt it is now).

The costs of maintaining two systems will not be minimal. The decision
to end POTS/PSTN was taken in part because it is ever more expensive to
maintain old-style wiring and exchanges. As more and more people move
to FTTP the cost-per-user will rocket. And there will be ever fewer
people trained to work on the old stuff.

Sorting out wayleaves is a cost. And there's a lot of litigation about
the new Communications Code between operators and landlords. But the
market may exert pressure there. E.g. landlords may find prospective
premium tenants walk away if there's no FTTP.

[Max Demian]

Post by J. P. Gilliver

Post by Roderick Stewart
On Tue, 11 Jul 2023 12:50:41 +0100, "J. P. Gilliver"

[]

Post by Roderick Stewart

Post by J. P. Gilliver
There will be a line - either fibre or copper. Whether charging
separately for its rental will cease (as I think it already has for FTTC
people), we'll have to wait to see - I hope so.

Eventually it will all be fibre. It may take some time, but they won't
want the cost and inconvenience of coping with two systems.
Rod.

(The point about separate charging remains. Though I don't know if
anyone already on fibre is paying a separate "line rental" [fibre rental
if you wish] charge.)
There's an awful lot of copper (or aluminium etc.) about - and it'll be
a huge job, changing all the connections - digging trenches (some wires
will have been buried for a lot of a century), sorting out access to
people's premises, sorting out wayleaves (where the wire crosses a third
party's land - or communal property, e. g. in blocks of flats), and so
on. I imagine the cost of coping with two systems will be pretty minimal
compared to the cost of sorting that lot out, and won't be seen as
significant until the copper percentage is pretty tiny (which I very
much doubt it is now).

The last few metres of my copper telephone connection is embedded in
reinforced concrete.

[Theo]

Post by J. P. Gilliver
(The point about separate charging remains. Though I don't know if
anyone already on fibre is paying a separate "line rental" [fibre rental
if you wish] charge.)

Only if they take an analogue phone with a separate line in addition to FTTP
(from a different provider perhaps). I think the term 'line rental' has
largely been phased out.

Post by J. P. Gilliver
There's an awful lot of copper (or aluminium etc.) about - and it'll be
a huge job, changing all the connections - digging trenches (some wires
will have been buried for a lot of a century), sorting out access to
people's premises, sorting out wayleaves (where the wire crosses a third
party's land - or communal property, e. g. in blocks of flats), and so
on. I imagine the cost of coping with two systems will be pretty minimal
compared to the cost of sorting that lot out, and won't be seen as
significant until the copper percentage is pretty tiny (which I very
much doubt it is now).

It's a big job, but it's happening. According to Ofcom, "some 48% of UK
homes and businesses had access to a “full fibre” network in January 2023"

https://www.ispreview.co.uk/index.php/2020/04/summary-of-full-fibre-build-progress-across-uk-broadband-isps.html

It's not just BT Openreach but some other large and dozens of smaller ISPs
too.

Once they have wired an exchange area for fibre, Openreach stop selling
copper products:
https://www.openreach.com/fibre-broadband/retiring-the-copper-network

Theo

[Andy Burns]

Post by Theo
Once they have wired an exchange area for fibre, Openreach stop selling

They're not going to sell copper voice lines (to new customers) after
this September.

[J. P. Gilliver]

Post by Andy Burns

Post by Theo
Once they have wired an exchange area for fibre, Openreach stop

They're not going to sell copper voice lines (to new customers) after
this September.

Presumably they'll withdraw it from _existing_ customers not long after
that.

[Andy Burns]

Post by J. P. Gilliver
Presumably they'll withdraw it from _existing_ customers not long after
that.

BT/Plusnet have started doing local "roadshows" where customers can just
turn-up to the announced venue to ask questions about digital voice ...

[Robin]

Post by J. P. Gilliver

Post by Andy Burns

Post by Theo
Once they have wired an exchange area for fibre, Openreach stop

They're not going to sell copper voice lines (to new customers) after
this September.

Presumably they'll withdraw it from _existing_ customers not long after
that.

The plan is by end-2025 there'll be no analogue, ISDN, SMPF, MPF or
Narrowband. All gone.

[MB]

Post by Robin
The plan is by end-2025 there'll be no analogue, ISDN, SMPF, MPF or
Narrowband. All gone.

I suspect that is optimistic (or should I say pessimistic?).

I was told by a BT engineer that they will doing the customers with a
poor broadband connection first - presumably mainly rural.

I wonder if rather than FTTP, we will start hearing of CTTP!

[Theo]

Post by MB

Post by Robin
The plan is by end-2025 there'll be no analogue, ISDN, SMPF, MPF or
Narrowband. All gone.

I suspect that is optimistic (or should I say pessimistic?).
I was told by a BT engineer that they will doing the customers with a
poor broadband connection first - presumably mainly rural.

A lot of people confuse the switch-off of analogue voice with the switch-off
of copper broadband (ADSL and FTTC). The target for analogue voice
switchoff is end 2025 (moving everyone onto VOIP products they're calling
'digital voice' running over their existing DSL), but FTTC in particular
will be with us for a while longer. There is no target to get everyone on
FTTP by end 2025.

Theo

[Robin]

Post by Theo

Post by MB

Post by Robin
The plan is by end-2025 there'll be no analogue, ISDN, SMPF, MPF or
Narrowband. All gone.

I suspect that is optimistic (or should I say pessimistic?).
I was told by a BT engineer that they will doing the customers with a
poor broadband connection first - presumably mainly rural.

A lot of people confuse the switch-off of analogue voice with the switch-off
of copper broadband (ADSL and FTTC). The target for analogue voice
switchoff is end 2025 (moving everyone onto VOIP products they're calling
'digital voice' running over their existing DSL), but FTTC in particular
will be with us for a while longer. There is no target to get everyone on
FTTP by end 2025.

AIUI wholesale line rental is to be withdrawn at the end of 2025 and
"that withdrawal will also apply to any broadband product (SMPF or
*FTTC* [emphasis added]) associated with a WLR PSTN line"[1]. SOGEA etc
instead.

[1]
https://www.openreach.co.uk/cpportal/products/the-all-ip-programme/stopsell-updates/

[Theo]

Post by Robin

Post by Theo

Post by MB

Post by Robin
The plan is by end-2025 there'll be no analogue, ISDN, SMPF, MPF or
Narrowband. All gone.

I suspect that is optimistic (or should I say pessimistic?).
I was told by a BT engineer that they will doing the customers with a
poor broadband connection first - presumably mainly rural.

A lot of people confuse the switch-off of analogue voice with the switch-off
of copper broadband (ADSL and FTTC). The target for analogue voice
switchoff is end 2025 (moving everyone onto VOIP products they're calling
'digital voice' running over their existing DSL), but FTTC in particular
will be with us for a while longer. There is no target to get everyone on
FTTP by end 2025.

AIUI wholesale line rental is to be withdrawn at the end of 2025 and
"that withdrawal will also apply to any broadband product (SMPF or
*FTTC* [emphasis added]) associated with a WLR PSTN line"[1]. SOGEA etc
instead.

Wholesale line rental (WLR3) is an analogue voice product. That is
something that will be withdrawn. The withdrawal of analogue voice products
means customers will be moved onto SOGEA (FTTC without analogue voice) or
SOADSL (ADSL without analogue voice). Neither will affect the copper lines,
which will stay in operation able to carry FTTC or ADSL, although there will
need to be a migration at the Openreach end.

Customers on WLR3 voice who take FTTC or ADSL from the same provider will be
migrated to SOGEA or SOADSL when their phone is moved to 'digital voice' (or
at some point afterwards when the ISP does the migration).

There is some trickiness for people who have WLR3 voice from one company and
ADSL/FTTC from another, because effectively their voice connection will
cease to exist. Solutions exist but a migration plan for them has not been
announced, to my knowledge.

None of this has anything to do with FTTP.

Theo

[Andy Burns]

The withdrawal of analogue voice products means customers will be
moved onto SOGEA (FTTC without analogue voice) or SOADSL (ADSL
without analogue voice).

Don't forget the dozens of customers who'll move to SOGFAST

[Robin]

Post by Andy Burns

The withdrawal of analogue voice products means customers will be
moved onto SOGEA (FTTC without analogue voice) or SOADSL (ADSL
without analogue voice).

Don't forget the dozens of customers who'll move to SOGFAST

or that Openreach et al refer to SOTAP (Single Order Temporary Access
Product) rather than SOADSL

[Robin]

Post by Theo

Post by Robin

Post by Theo

Post by MB

Post by Robin
The plan is by end-2025 there'll be no analogue, ISDN, SMPF, MPF or
Narrowband. All gone.

I suspect that is optimistic (or should I say pessimistic?).
I was told by a BT engineer that they will doing the customers with a
poor broadband connection first - presumably mainly rural.

A lot of people confuse the switch-off of analogue voice with the switch-off
of copper broadband (ADSL and FTTC). The target for analogue voice
switchoff is end 2025 (moving everyone onto VOIP products they're calling
'digital voice' running over their existing DSL), but FTTC in particular
will be with us for a while longer. There is no target to get everyone on
FTTP by end 2025.

AIUI wholesale line rental is to be withdrawn at the end of 2025 and
"that withdrawal will also apply to any broadband product (SMPF or
*FTTC* [emphasis added]) associated with a WLR PSTN line"[1]. SOGEA etc
instead.

Wholesale line rental (WLR3) is an analogue voice product. That is
something that will be withdrawn. The withdrawal of analogue voice products
means customers will be moved onto SOGEA (FTTC without analogue voice) or
SOADSL (ADSL without analogue voice). Neither will affect the copper lines,
which will stay in operation able to carry FTTC or ADSL, although there will
need to be a migration at the Openreach end.
Customers on WLR3 voice who take FTTC or ADSL from the same provider will be
migrated to SOGEA or SOADSL when their phone is moved to 'digital voice' (or
at some point afterwards when the ISP does the migration).
There is some trickiness for people who have WLR3 voice from one company and
ADSL/FTTC from another, because effectively their voice connection will
cease to exist. Solutions exist but a migration plan for them has not been
announced, to my knowledge.
None of this has anything to do with FTTP.

I don't think I said or implied it was anything to do with FTTP. I just
don't think it helps to say that FTTC will be with us after 2025 when
FTTC as a product will cease.

[Theo]

Post by Robin

Post by Theo
Wholesale line rental (WLR3) is an analogue voice product. That is
something that will be withdrawn. The withdrawal of analogue voice products
means customers will be moved onto SOGEA (FTTC without analogue voice) or
SOADSL (ADSL without analogue voice). Neither will affect the copper lines,
which will stay in operation able to carry FTTC or ADSL, although there will
need to be a migration at the Openreach end.
Customers on WLR3 voice who take FTTC or ADSL from the same provider will be
migrated to SOGEA or SOADSL when their phone is moved to 'digital voice' (or
at some point afterwards when the ISP does the migration).
There is some trickiness for people who have WLR3 voice from one company and
ADSL/FTTC from another, because effectively their voice connection will
cease to exist. Solutions exist but a migration plan for them has not been
announced, to my knowledge.
None of this has anything to do with FTTP.

I don't think I said or implied it was anything to do with FTTP. I just
don't think it helps to say that FTTC will be with us after 2025 when
FTTC as a product will cease.

FTTC is not an Openreach product, it's the description of the connection.

Openreach call the product Generic Ethernet Access (GEA), which comes in
FTTC and FTTP versions. Ethernet because the bearer for traffic is Ethernet
(rather than ATM in the case of ADSL).

The FTTC product where there's no analogue voice they call Single Order GEA
(or SOGEA). Fibre has never had an analogue voice connection so there's no
SOGEA for FTTP.

There's also SOGFast (where I don't think there's previously been a version
with analogue voice on the same line, so no GEA GFast), and a variety of
legacy ADSL options (LLU etc). ADSL doesn't use Ethernet so there's no GEA
ADSL.

https://www.openreach.co.uk/cpportal/products/pricing

In short, however Openreach call it, the copper between you and the cabinet
will, for many people, still be carrying your broadband after the end of
2025. It won't have a voice circuit on it, but it's not being withdrawn for
data.

Theo

(who lives somewhere which isn't even on the OR FTTP roadmap which goes up
to 2026)

[Roderick Stewart]

On 13 Jul 2023 15:42:33 +0100 (BST), Theo

Post by Theo
In short, however Openreach call it, the copper between you and the cabinet
will, for many people, still be carrying your broadband after the end of
2025. It won't have a voice circuit on it, but it's not being withdrawn for
data.

But only until that copper cable develops a fault perhaps?

If this happens in an area where FTTP is available, it must eventually
become standard practice to abandon the copper and tell the customer
that a change to fibre is the only option.

Rod.

[Andy Burns]

Post by Roderick Stewart

the copper between you and the cabinet will, for many people, still
be carrying your broadband after the end of 2025.

But only until that copper cable develops a fault perhaps?

Eh? if there's no FTTP, they'll have to fix the copper to keep FTTC
running, just like today.

Post by Roderick Stewart
If this happens in an area where FTTP is available, it must eventually
become standard practice to abandon the copper and tell the customer
that a change to fibre is the only option.

Yes, once FTTP appears in an area, they should (and I think they will)
aggressively push people away from FTTC.

[Mark Carver]

Post by Andy Burns

Post by Roderick Stewart

the copper between you and the cabinet will, for many people, still
be carrying your broadband after the end of 2025.

But only until that copper cable develops a fault perhaps?

Eh? if there's no FTTP, they'll have to fix the copper to keep FTTC
running, just like today.

They will, but there are fewer and fewer Openreach staff with the
experience and training to diagnose and fix copper/analogue faults.

New Openreach recruits are only being trained for 'fibre skills' AIUI

Get off FTTC as soon as you can (in other words as soon as FTTP is
available for your home)

[Andy Burns]

there are fewer and fewer Openreach staff with the experience and
training to diagnose and fix copper/analogue faults.

Yep, a schoolfriend of mine left at the end of the 5th form to work for
BT, he still works for them today up poles and down manholes. His patch
seem to keep extending and he's forever on standby ...

[Mark Carver]

Post by Andy Burns

there are fewer and fewer Openreach staff with the experience and
training to diagnose and fix copper/analogue faults.

Yep, a schoolfriend of mine left at the end of the 5th form to work
for BT, he still works for them today up poles and down manholes.  His
patch seem to keep extending and he's forever on standby ...

If I'm still on FTTC in 2028, I might ping you for his contact details !

[J. P. Gilliver]

[]

Post by Mark Carver

Post by Andy Burns
Eh? if there's no FTTP, they'll have to fix the copper to keep FTTC
running, just like today.

They will, but there are fewer and fewer Openreach staff with the
experience and training to diagnose and fix copper/analogue faults.
New Openreach recruits are only being trained for 'fibre skills' AIUI
Get off FTTC as soon as you can (in other words as soon as FTTP is
available for your home)

Is this commonly available as a no-cost (to the consumer) matter, or do
you in most cases have to pay for such a transition? (I'm distinguishing
between "available" and "desired" [by the provider].)

[Theo]

Post by Roderick Stewart
On 13 Jul 2023 15:42:33 +0100 (BST), Theo

Post by Theo
In short, however Openreach call it, the copper between you and the cabinet
will, for many people, still be carrying your broadband after the end of
2025. It won't have a voice circuit on it, but it's not being withdrawn for
data.

But only until that copper cable develops a fault perhaps?
If this happens in an area where FTTP is available, it must eventually
become standard practice to abandon the copper and tell the customer
that a change to fibre is the only option.

Once an area is FTTPed, the copper will first go stop-sell (so no
new contracts can use copper but old ones can continue) and then stopped
completely.

This has happened in the areas which were in the initial batch of
total-FTTPing, eg Salisbury and Mildenhall. Other areas are at different
points along this journey.

What won't happen is piecemeal FTTP installation: if your copper line breaks
and there's no FTTP locally, they'll replace it with another copper line.
They won't run FTTP specially to your house, at least in most cases.
However new builds (>1 per site) are getting FTTP from the get-go, and they
are getting new FTTP plant.

Theo

[J. P. Gilliver]

In message <I9j*oI-***@news.chiark.greenend.org.uk> at Thu, 13 Jul 2023
12:38:34, Theo <theom+***@chiark.greenend.org.uk> writes
[]

Post by Theo
Wholesale line rental (WLR3) is an analogue voice product. That is

(It doesn't help clarity referring to a "service" or "provision" as a
"product", although I know it's acceptable business practice. [Not
getting at Theo, who's just relaying Openreach or whatever.])

Post by Theo
something that will be withdrawn. The withdrawal of analogue voice products
means customers will be moved onto SOGEA (FTTC without analogue voice) or
SOADSL (ADSL without analogue voice). Neither will affect the copper lines,
which will stay in operation able to carry FTTC or ADSL, although there will
need to be a migration at the Openreach end.

The _concept_ of a separate charge for the line maintenance (whatever
it's actually made of) remains as something I could see some companies
trying to retain or reintroduce; I sincerely hope none do, since we pay
a fixed rate anyway, so arbitrarily splitting that into two (or more!)
would seem silly.

(Will VoIP telephone provision cease to be per-minute [with allowances
or not]? Those who already have it, is it? Or only for calls to certain
destinations/types of number?)

Post by Theo
Customers on WLR3 voice who take FTTC or ADSL from the same provider will be
migrated to SOGEA or SOADSL when their phone is moved to 'digital voice' (or
at some point afterwards when the ISP does the migration).
There is some trickiness for people who have WLR3 voice from one company and
ADSL/FTTC from another, because effectively their voice connection will
cease to exist. Solutions exist but a migration plan for them has not been
announced, to my knowledge.

Probably quite a small percentage, now. (Not sure why I say that; IIRR
last time I looked into the possibility, moneysavingexpert said that
though such arrangements remained _available_, "bundled" ones usually
worked out cheaper anyway. That was a few years ago though.)

Post by Theo
None of this has anything to do with FTTP.

No, it's the "product" or "offering", not how it's delivered.

Post by Theo
Theo

John

P. S.: my spellchecker just suggested "overreach" for "Openreach" (-:

[Theo]

Post by J. P. Gilliver
[]

Post by Theo
Wholesale line rental (WLR3) is an analogue voice product. That is

(It doesn't help clarity referring to a "service" or "provision" as a
"product", although I know it's acceptable business practice. [Not
getting at Theo, who's just relaying Openreach or whatever.])

They are products which Openreach offer to ISPs. They are not products
consumers can buy directly. The ISP selects from the products available to
them. Separately, services are doing things that deliver the product - eg
installing a new line is a service.

Post by J. P. Gilliver

Post by Theo
something that will be withdrawn. The withdrawal of analogue voice products
means customers will be moved onto SOGEA (FTTC without analogue voice) or
SOADSL (ADSL without analogue voice). Neither will affect the copper lines,
which will stay in operation able to carry FTTC or ADSL, although there will
need to be a migration at the Openreach end.

The _concept_ of a separate charge for the line maintenance (whatever
it's actually made of) remains as something I could see some companies
trying to retain or reintroduce; I sincerely hope none do, since we pay
a fixed rate anyway, so arbitrarily splitting that into two (or more!)
would seem silly.

It only really makes sense if there are different tiers. eg you pay your
monthly fee but you want a priority response to faults, so that is added on
top. ISPs in the US are skilled in inventing all kinds of compulsory
charges which they don't mention in their adverts.

Post by J. P. Gilliver
(Will VoIP telephone provision cease to be per-minute [with allowances
or not]? Those who already have it, is it? Or only for calls to certain
destinations/types of number?)

You can PAYG or take an allowance ('NNN minutes per month') or bundle
('unlimited weekends'), it's up to you. Different providers have different
offerings. If you get VOIP from a separate provider to the one who
provides your broadband then you can choose one who best suits your
requirements.

Post by J. P. Gilliver

Post by Theo
Customers on WLR3 voice who take FTTC or ADSL from the same provider will be
migrated to SOGEA or SOADSL when their phone is moved to 'digital voice' (or
at some point afterwards when the ISP does the migration).
There is some trickiness for people who have WLR3 voice from one company and
ADSL/FTTC from another, because effectively their voice connection will
cease to exist. Solutions exist but a migration plan for them has not been
announced, to my knowledge.

Probably quite a small percentage, now. (Not sure why I say that; IIRR
last time I looked into the possibility, moneysavingexpert said that
though such arrangements remained _available_, "bundled" ones usually
worked out cheaper anyway. That was a few years ago though.)

Probably. I think there are some people who stick with BT for phone because
they've always been with them, and get the broadband from somebody else.
But suspect the majority of people who pay attention to pricing have long
left.

Post by J. P. Gilliver

Post by Theo
None of this has anything to do with FTTP.

No, it's the "product" or "offering", not how it's delivered.

See my reply to Robin: it does matter, because OR's products are specific to
the delivery mechanism: eg there's GEA FTTP, GEA FTTC, SOGEA FTTC, SOGFast,
WLR and various ADSL products. You can't get WLR over FTTP because the
products are incompatible (WLR = analogue voice, FTTP = no copper).

Before we got bogged down in the weeds of Openreach, I just wanted to make
it clear that the copper from the cabinet is not going anytime soon, for a
lot of people. Many seem to misunderstand about this.

Theo

[J. P. Gilliver]

[]

Post by Theo

Post by J. P. Gilliver
(Will VoIP telephone provision cease to be per-minute [with allowances
or not]? Those who already have it, is it? Or only for calls to certain
destinations/types of number?)

You can PAYG or take an allowance ('NNN minutes per month') or bundle
('unlimited weekends'), it's up to you. Different providers have different

So, basically, much the same range of schemes as we now get with POTS. I
just wondered if they was any chance of them doing away with such
charging in much the same way as (I think) per-megabyte (or -gigabyte)
charging for broadband has (I think) disappeared (for fixed lines - I
think several mobile operators still use it).
[]

Post by Theo
Before we got bogged down in the weeds of Openreach, I just wanted to make
it clear that the copper from the cabinet is not going anytime soon, for a
lot of people. Many seem to misunderstand about this.
Theo

Thanks for the clarification. So, basically, what's going - first, at
least - is the old-fashioned switching - quaint concepts like "on hook",
exchange power, and so on.

I presume pulse dialling support will go at the same time.

[NY]

Post by Theo

Post by MB

Post by Robin
The plan is by end-2025 there'll be no analogue, ISDN, SMPF, MPF or
Narrowband. All gone.

I suspect that is optimistic (or should I say pessimistic?).
I was told by a BT engineer that they will doing the customers with a
poor broadband connection first - presumably mainly rural.

How will they cater for houses in very small communities (eg five houses and
two farms) which are about 2 miles by road (maybe 1.5 in a straight line)
from a BTOR cabinet. What bitrate does VOIP need? Will it work over a 500
kb/sec (down) / 50 kb/sec (up) ADSL connection? Will they run fibre even to
very small isolated communities, or will they shorten the route of the
existing copper to give FTTC? The house I'm thinking of (my parents' holiday
cottage) has a phone line which goes all the way back to the exchange, about
6 miles away; for some reason it passes fairly close to the FTTC cabinets
(covered in "Get your fibre now" adverts) but doesn't actually connect in
there, either for ADSL or VDSL. Given the 6-mile cable run to the exchange,
internet speeds are dire.

Post by Theo
A lot of people confuse the switch-off of analogue voice with the switch-off
of copper broadband (ADSL and FTTC). The target for analogue voice
switchoff is end 2025 (moving everyone onto VOIP products they're calling
'digital voice' running over their existing DSL), but FTTC in particular
will be with us for a while longer. There is no target to get everyone on
FTTP by end 2025.

Ah, so those people with good FTTC/VDSL won't be *required* to change to
FTTP (unless they want the faster speed). I presume the VOIP-analogue
converter just plugs into an Ethernet port on your router - if you want to
carry on using your cordless DECT phone rather than getting an all-digital
phone system instead.

The lack of force-feeding fibre is good news for us. If BTOR had insisted on
replacing our copper drop cable and wiring from there to the various
sockets, it would have been a logistical problem because the copper cable
reaches the house in a place that would need crawl boards over a roof to
reach, and they'd probably then bring the fibre in through a window frame at
a point in the living room where there is no mains power for the fibre-to-IP
interface (*); getting Ethernet from there to the route would be OK because
modern Cat7 is flat so it can tuck under the edge of carpets around the room
to the point where we have the router. Or else they'd bring it in via the
front door (where there is mains) but routing Cat 7 would be a real problem
because there is a room in between which has wall-to-wall hardwood flooring,
so no convenient carpet to hide the cable between carpet and skirting board.


(*) Lift carpet, chase out a channel in the concrete floor for an armoured
mains cable spur from a socket on the other side of a doorway, backfill,
install new mains socket. A faff, but not impossible.

[Theo]

Post by NY

Post by MB

Post by Robin
The plan is by end-2025 there'll be no analogue, ISDN, SMPF, MPF or
Narrowband. All gone.

I suspect that is optimistic (or should I say pessimistic?).
I was told by a BT engineer that they will doing the customers with a
poor broadband connection first - presumably mainly rural.

How will they cater for houses in very small communities (eg five houses and
two farms) which are about 2 miles by road (maybe 1.5 in a straight line)
from a BTOR cabinet.

The fibre installation is separate from the cabinet location, so there's no
dependency on going back there. They do seem to be prioritising locations
with worse service (possibly because they're poled and so cheaper to do).

Post by NY
What bitrate does VOIP need? Will it work over a 500 kb/sec (down) / 50
kb/sec (up) ADSL connection?

Regular VOIP would be about 80kbps each way. It's possible downgrading the
codec would get it below 50. G.729 is 8kbps, for example.

Post by NY
Will they run fibre even to very small isolated communities, or will they
shorten the route of the existing copper to give FTTC?

It's fibre or nothing at the moment. Many of the engineers doing fibre
installs are new and aren't trained on copper. Fibre is much better over
longer distances than FTTC. Also long copper lines are unreliable, so
installing FTTP saves on maintenance in the long run.

Post by NY
The house I'm thinking of (my parents' holiday cottage) has a phone line
which goes all the way back to the exchange, about 6 miles away; for some
reason it passes fairly close to the FTTC cabinets (covered in "Get your
fibre now" adverts) but doesn't actually connect in there, either for ADSL
or VDSL. Given the 6-mile cable run to the exchange, internet speeds are
dire.

If the cabinet is nearby, it's possible that could be a fibre distribution
point, since there's already a backhaul there. But it doesn't have to be.

Post by NY
Ah, so those people with good FTTC/VDSL won't be *required* to change to
FTTP (unless they want the faster speed). I presume the VOIP-analogue
converter just plugs into an Ethernet port on your router - if you want to
carry on using your cordless DECT phone rather than getting an all-digital
phone system instead.

The VOIP converter is inside the router, there's a phone socket on the back.
If you want to go to a third party VOIP service than that uses a separate
box.

Post by NY
The lack of force-feeding fibre is good news for us. If BTOR had insisted on
replacing our copper drop cable and wiring from there to the various
sockets, it would have been a logistical problem because the copper cable
reaches the house in a place that would need crawl boards over a roof to
reach, and they'd probably then bring the fibre in through a window frame at
a point in the living room where there is no mains power for the fibre-to-IP
interface (*); getting Ethernet from there to the route would be OK because
modern Cat7 is flat so it can tuck under the edge of carpets around the room
to the point where we have the router. Or else they'd bring it in via the
front door (where there is mains) but routing Cat 7 would be a real problem
because there is a room in between which has wall-to-wall hardwood flooring,
so no convenient carpet to hide the cable between carpet and skirting board.

Fibre installs don't need to follow the same routing as copper. Typically a
cable from the pole will run down the wall outside to a termination point at
ground level, then a fibre through the wall to a location for the ONT
(optical to ethernet converter box), which needs power. When they come you
can discuss the best location for it, but it would be good to think about
that and provision power in advance (worst case, run a temporary extension
lead).

OR won't install to 'difficult' places, eg unboarded lofts. I suspect
dubious roofs are out too.

Post by NY
(*) Lift carpet, chase out a channel in the concrete floor for an armoured
mains cable spur from a socket on the other side of a doorway, backfill,
install new mains socket. A faff, but not impossible.

It's going to have to happen at some point this decade, so best plan for it.
Although a temporary power supply would work for the install and then tidy
it up later.

Theo

[J. P. Gilliver]

In message <H9j****@news.chiark.greenend.org.uk> at Thu, 13 Jul 2023
16:28:05, Theo <theom+***@chiark.greenend.org.uk> writes
[]

Post by Theo
The VOIP converter is inside the router, there's a phone socket on the back.
If you want to go to a third party VOIP service than that uses a separate
box.

[]
On the back of my latest router from PlusNet (a "hub 2"), there's a
taped-over socket (it says on the tape "digital voice customers only");
I presume that's it. I've just had a look under the tape, and it looks
like a normal BT type telephone socket (i. e. it's a different connector
to the row of ethernet sockets).

(_Will_ it support pulse dialling? I'll be surprised. Though presumably
it _does_ supply the same sort of power the exchange currently does, for
corded 'phones with some electronics in. Though maybe not enough to ring
a mechanical bell.)

[John Williamson]

Post by J. P. Gilliver
(_Will_ it support pulse dialling? I'll be surprised. Though presumably
it _does_ supply the same sort of power the exchange currently does, for
corded 'phones with some electronics in. Though maybe not enough to ring
a mechanical bell.)

This claims to support using pulse and tone dial phones over VOIP
circuits. It might even work with OpenReach's version.

Reading the fine print it seems to only convert pulse dialling to tone
dialling, though.

https://www.vintagetelephony.co.uk/product/pulse-to-tone-converter-dial-a-tone-dialatone

[J. P. Gilliver]

Post by John Williamson

Post by J. P. Gilliver
(_Will_ it support pulse dialling? I'll be surprised. Though presumably
it _does_ supply the same sort of power the exchange currently does, for
corded 'phones with some electronics in. Though maybe not enough to ring
a mechanical bell.)

This claims to support using pulse and tone dial phones over VOIP
circuits. It might even work with OpenReach's version.
Reading the fine print it seems to only convert pulse dialling to tone
dialling, though.
https://www.vintagetelephony.co.uk/product/pulse-to-tone-converter-dial-
a-tone-dialatone

Ouch on price, but sounds like it'll work for those who really want it!
Presumably if it produces tones, that's going to be what the new routers
expect.

[Theo]

Post by J. P. Gilliver
[]

Post by Theo
The VOIP converter is inside the router, there's a phone socket on the back.
If you want to go to a third party VOIP service than that uses a separate
box.

[]
On the back of my latest router from PlusNet (a "hub 2"), there's a
taped-over socket (it says on the tape "digital voice customers only");
I presume that's it. I've just had a look under the tape, and it looks
like a normal BT type telephone socket (i. e. it's a different connector
to the row of ethernet sockets).

That's the one. If you have an old router without a phone socket your ISP
will send you a new one.

Post by J. P. Gilliver
(_Will_ it support pulse dialling? I'll be surprised. Though presumably
it _does_ supply the same sort of power the exchange currently does, for
corded 'phones with some electronics in. Though maybe not enough to ring
a mechanical bell.)

Some ATA (standalone analogue to VOIP) boxes can support pulse dialling. As
to whether they do on your particular router depends on the specifics of the
implementation.

I don't think there's much beyond software needed to implement it, so it'll
probably be down to whatever the box manufacturer put in the firmware.

Theo

[John Williamson]

Post by Theo
I don't think there's much beyond software needed to implement it, so it'll
probably be down to whatever the box manufacturer put in the firmware.

The box I checked pretends at one end to be an old style pulse dial
exchange and at the other a standard tone dial handset. The main
problem, apparently, is fitting a capacitor big enough to trigger the
bell in the handset into the box.

If you can use a single ring unit, tone dial handset on your router,
you're good to go.

[Robin]

Post by Theo

Post by J. P. Gilliver
[]

Post by Theo
The VOIP converter is inside the router, there's a phone socket on the back.
If you want to go to a third party VOIP service than that uses a separate
box.

[]
On the back of my latest router from PlusNet (a "hub 2"), there's a
taped-over socket (it says on the tape "digital voice customers only");
I presume that's it. I've just had a look under the tape, and it looks
like a normal BT type telephone socket (i. e. it's a different connector
to the row of ethernet sockets).

That's the one. If you have an old router without a phone socket your ISP
will send you a new one.

Post by J. P. Gilliver
(_Will_ it support pulse dialling? I'll be surprised. Though presumably
it _does_ supply the same sort of power the exchange currently does, for
corded 'phones with some electronics in. Though maybe not enough to ring
a mechanical bell.)

Some ATA (standalone analogue to VOIP) boxes can support pulse dialling. As
to whether they do on your particular router depends on the specifics of the
implementation.
I don't think there's much beyond software needed to implement it, so it'll
probably be down to whatever the box manufacturer put in the firmware.

My first FTTP option - Hyperoptic - has just gone live so I've been
looking at their offers. I'm waiting for email support to answer my
questions about their routers as telephone support didn't have a clue
and the online router manuals don't even mention phones.

[Mark Carver]

Post by Robin

Post by J. P. Gilliver
[]

Post by Theo
The VOIP converter is inside the router, there's a phone socket on the back.
If you want to go to a third party VOIP service than that uses a separate
box.

[]
On the back of my latest router from PlusNet (a "hub 2"), there's a
taped-over socket (it says on the tape "digital voice customers only");
I presume that's it. I've just had a look under the tape, and it looks
like a normal BT type telephone socket (i. e. it's a different connector
to the row of ethernet sockets).

That's the one.  If you have an old router without a phone socket
your ISP
will send you a new one.

Post by J. P. Gilliver
(_Will_ it support pulse dialling? I'll be surprised. Though presumably
it _does_ supply the same sort of power the exchange currently does, for
corded 'phones with some electronics in. Though maybe not enough to ring
a mechanical bell.)

Some ATA (standalone analogue to VOIP) boxes can support pulse
dialling.  As
to whether they do on your particular router depends on the specifics of the
implementation.
I don't think there's much beyond software needed to implement it, so it'll
probably be down to whatever the box manufacturer put in the firmware.

My first FTTP option - Hyperoptic - has just gone live so I've been
looking at their offers. I'm waiting for email support to answer my
questions about their routers as telephone support didn't have a clue
and the online router manuals don't even mention phones.

If I were you, I'd be going with a third party VoIP supplier, and using
this as an ideal opportunity to port your phone number into them, thus
decoupling forever your POTs from your broadband. You are then totally
free to use and manage your own router and VoIP adaptor

[Theo]

Post by Mark Carver

Post by Robin
My first FTTP option - Hyperoptic - has just gone live so I've been
looking at their offers. I'm waiting for email support to answer my
questions about their routers as telephone support didn't have a clue
and the online router manuals don't even mention phones.

If I were you, I'd be going with a third party VoIP supplier, and using
this as an ideal opportunity to port your phone number into them, thus
decoupling forever your POTs from your broadband. You are then totally
free to use and manage your own router and VoIP adaptor

Yes, that's the way things are going. FTTP ISPs provide connectivity
primarily, and voice is really an afterthought to smooth out the bumps for
people who previously had ADSL/FTTC that came with a phone.

It feels a little like ISP provided email - the ISP would much rather you
went to Gmail or Outlook rather than relying on their own email platform
which has costs and no benefits for the ISP.

I expect sooner or later ISPs will start partnering with VOIP companies,
offering to resell their VOIP services rather than running their own.

In your case I'd get the FTTP installed and working, and once done port out
your number to a third party provider which will also cease your copper
broadband. More details here:
http://wiki.diyfaq.org.uk/index.php/Telephones,_analogue_to_digital_conversion

(although that's partly about 'digital voice' on copper lines, the comments
about a SIP service are relevant)

Theo

[Tweed]

Post by Theo

Post by Mark Carver

Post by Robin
My first FTTP option - Hyperoptic - has just gone live so I've been
looking at their offers. I'm waiting for email support to answer my
questions about their routers as telephone support didn't have a clue
and the online router manuals don't even mention phones.

If I were you, I'd be going with a third party VoIP supplier, and using
this as an ideal opportunity to port your phone number into them, thus
decoupling forever your POTs from your broadband. You are then totally
free to use and manage your own router and VoIP adaptor

Yes, that's the way things are going. FTTP ISPs provide connectivity
primarily, and voice is really an afterthought to smooth out the bumps for
people who previously had ADSL/FTTC that came with a phone.
It feels a little like ISP provided email - the ISP would much rather you
went to Gmail or Outlook rather than relying on their own email platform
which has costs and no benefits for the ISP.
I expect sooner or later ISPs will start partnering with VOIP companies,
offering to resell their VOIP services rather than running their own.
In your case I'd get the FTTP installed and working, and once done port out
your number to a third party provider which will also cease your copper
http://wiki.diyfaq.org.uk/index.php/Telephones,_analogue_to_digital_conversion
(although that's partly about 'digital voice' on copper lines, the comments
about a SIP service are relevant)
Theo

I think many ISPs see their own provided voice services as a way of making
it harder for you to swap ISP.

[J. P. Gilliver]

In message <u8rkvp$1n5q$***@dont-email.me> at Fri, 14 Jul 2023 14:10:01,
Tweed <***@gmail.com> writes
[]

Post by Tweed
I think many ISPs see their own provided voice services as a way of making
it harder for you to swap ISP.

Certainly by arranging contracts with different ending dates, and hefty
charges for ending one of them early; I don't know if that was banned by
the line-rental-separate-banning legislation someone told us about, but
PlusNet certainly used it a few years ago. It worked like this:
theoretical high prices for each service, but in practice provided at a
discount if you took both from them (like gas and electric "duel fuel
discounts" for energy providers - but in this case the discount was many
times, not just a bit off). So if you stopped whichever contract ended
early (by switching it to another supplier), what was left on the other
service contract was now at the full (and previously only theoretical)
charge. And you couldn't terminate _that_ one early on the grounds the
cost had gone up, because it hadn't: you'd agreed that you'd accept the
"duel fuel" discount and that you'd lose it. (Terminating early
_without_ "good reason" involved you in an early termination penalty of
more or less the remaining fee anyway.)

Presumably VoIP transfers, at least to the same provider, will _not_
involve changing number. (Is it possible to change VoIP _provider_ and
retain number, as it is for fobile ones?)

[I just about know my number, after being here about 16 years - and
there are times I'm not entirely sure still!]

Is "short dialling" - where you only have to dial the digits after the
code, if calling someone on the same exchange - still available on VoIP?

[Tweed]

Post by J. P. Gilliver
[]

Post by Tweed
I think many ISPs see their own provided voice services as a way of making
it harder for you to swap ISP.

Certainly by arranging contracts with different ending dates, and hefty
charges for ending one of them early; I don't know if that was banned by
the line-rental-separate-banning legislation someone told us about, but
theoretical high prices for each service, but in practice provided at a
discount if you took both from them (like gas and electric "duel fuel
discounts" for energy providers - but in this case the discount was many
times, not just a bit off). So if you stopped whichever contract ended
early (by switching it to another supplier), what was left on the other
service contract was now at the full (and previously only theoretical)
charge. And you couldn't terminate _that_ one early on the grounds the
cost had gone up, because it hadn't: you'd agreed that you'd accept the
"duel fuel" discount and that you'd lose it. (Terminating early
_without_ "good reason" involved you in an early termination penalty of
more or less the remaining fee anyway.)
Presumably VoIP transfers, at least to the same provider, will _not_
involve changing number. (Is it possible to change VoIP _provider_ and
retain number, as it is for fobile ones?)
[I just about know my number, after being here about 16 years - and
there are times I'm not entirely sure still!]
Is "short dialling" - where you only have to dial the digits after the
code, if calling someone on the same exchange - still available on VoIP?

Number portability exists for voip. I’ve moved a number that was originally
BT to Sipgate (voip) and then to Andrews and Arnold (voip). The latter
charge me £1.44 per month excluding any call charges, which gives you an
indication of the true economic cost of providing such a service.

[John Williamson]

Post by Theo
It feels a little like ISP provided email - the ISP would much rather you
went to Gmail or Outlook rather than relying on their own email platform
which has costs and no benefits for the ISP.

I got e-mail service from BT as part of the landline broadband service I
paid for whether I used it or not, and now I am on someone else's 4G
service, I have to pay them a monthly fee, as I do for my website and
private e-mail server, which are on a server somewhere or other,
possibly in the EU.

[Robin]

Post by Theo

Post by Mark Carver

Post by Robin
My first FTTP option - Hyperoptic - has just gone live so I've been
looking at their offers. I'm waiting for email support to answer my
questions about their routers as telephone support didn't have a clue
and the online router manuals don't even mention phones.

If I were you, I'd be going with a third party VoIP supplier, and using
this as an ideal opportunity to port your phone number into them, thus
decoupling forever your POTs from your broadband. You are then totally
free to use and manage your own router and VoIP adaptor

Yes, that's the way things are going. FTTP ISPs provide connectivity
primarily, and voice is really an afterthought to smooth out the bumps for
people who previously had ADSL/FTTC that came with a phone.

That is very much in mind (not least as Hyperoptic they don't even offer
a call package that has free calls to mobiles). But I still wanted to
know what they supported.

Post by Theo
It feels a little like ISP provided email - the ISP would much rather you
went to Gmail or Outlook rather than relying on their own email platform
which has costs and no benefits for the ISP.
I expect sooner or later ISPs will start partnering with VOIP companies,
offering to resell their VOIP services rather than running their own.
In your case I'd get the FTTP installed and working, and once done port out
your number to a third party provider which will also cease your copper
http://wiki.diyfaq.org.uk/index.php/Telephones,_analogue_to_digital_conversion

As you possibly recall I know about (and contributed a bit to) that
helpful page. But (unless I've missed a change) it doesn't cover my
precise circs - viz Virgin Media BB & phone. So I'm exploring taking the
number to Hyperoptic and then on to separate VOIP..

[Andy Burns]

Post by MB

Post by Robin
The plan is by end-2025 there'll be no analogue, ISDN, SMPF, MPF or
Narrowband.  All gone.

I suspect that is optimistic (or should I say pessimistic?).

Why? it doesn't rely on giving people FTTP, just removing dial tone and
ring tone ...

[Stephen Wolstenholme]

On Wed, 12 Jul 2023 18:56:02 +0100, "J. P. Gilliver"

Post by J. P. Gilliver

Post by Andy Burns

Post by Theo
Once they have wired an exchange area for fibre, Openreach stop

They're not going to sell copper voice lines (to new customers) after
this September.

Presumably they'll withdraw it from _existing_ customers not long after
that.

Do you mean external lines just to the house with access problems or
the whole grid? Either way that will be years of work for Openreach.

[Andy Burns]

Post by Stephen Wolstenholme

Post by J. P. Gilliver

Post by Andy Burns
They're not going to sell copper voice lines (to new customers) after
this September.

Presumably they'll withdraw it from _existing_ customers not long after
that.

Do you mean external lines just to the house with access problems or
the whole grid? Either way that will be years of work for Openreach.

Within 2 years, if a house still has copper, it will *only* be for
broadband, any form of phoneline will be VoIP over the broadband one way
or another.

[J. P. Gilliver]

Post by Theo

Post by J. P. Gilliver
(The point about separate charging remains. Though I don't know if
anyone already on fibre is paying a separate "line rental" [fibre rental
if you wish] charge.)

Only if they take an analogue phone with a separate line in addition to FTTP
(from a different provider perhaps). I think the term 'line rental' has
largely been phased out.

So you don't "rent the fibre" then - i. e. the maintenance cost is
included in the service cost. Good. I imagined that was the case, but I
wouldn't have put it past some companies to try to maintain (or even
resurrect) the concept.

Post by Theo

Post by J. P. Gilliver
There's an awful lot of copper (or aluminium etc.) about - and it'll be
a huge job, changing all the connections - digging trenches (some wires
will have been buried for a lot of a century), sorting out access to
people's premises, sorting out wayleaves (where the wire crosses a third
party's land - or communal property, e. g. in blocks of flats), and so
on. I imagine the cost of coping with two systems will be pretty minimal
compared to the cost of sorting that lot out, and won't be seen as
significant until the copper percentage is pretty tiny (which I very
much doubt it is now).

It's a big job, but it's happening. According to Ofcom, "some 48% of UK
homes and businesses had access to a “full fibre” network in January 2023"

I certainly wasn't saying it wasn't happening - I imagine they're doing
it as fast as limited manpower availability will let them; I just
suspect it's a huge job. (I'm also suspicious of "had access to"; that
could mean a multitude of things!)

Post by Theo
https://www.ispreview.co.uk/index.php/2020/04/summary-of-full-fibre-buil
d-progress-across-uk-broadband-isps.html
It's not just BT Openreach but some other large and dozens of smaller ISPs
too.
Once they have wired an exchange area for fibre, Openreach stop selling
https://www.openreach.com/fibre-broadband/retiring-the-copper-network
Theo

[NY]

Post by Theo

Post by J. P. Gilliver
*IF* the solution _is_ to actually _give_ everyone broadband - i. e.
provide it at no more than the line rental charge - then I'd accept it*,
but I very much doubt either the government or the ISPs have any
intention of doing away with that revenue stream. I've thought for some
time that the splitting of the charge into line rental and broadband is
increasingly arbitrary (and leads to many dishonest marketing
practices), but without legislation - from a government that knows what
it's doing, so that's a pipedream - it won't happen.

Splitting broadband and line rental for marketing purposes has been banned
https://www.ispreview.co.uk/index.php/2016/05/advert-watchdog-forces-uk-isps-include-line-rental-broadband-price.html
(there may be non-marketing places it still lurks, eg pricing breakdowns on
customers bills. But those breakdowns are largely fictional)

I suppose you can infer the cost of broadband by subtracting the line rental
only (for someone who has no broadband) from the fixed rental cost of a
broadband-enabled line from the same provider - either from marketing
information or from specific customer bills.

[J. P. Gilliver]

Post by Theo

Post by J. P. Gilliver
*IF* the solution _is_ to actually _give_ everyone broadband - i. e.
provide it at no more than the line rental charge - then I'd accept it*,
but I very much doubt either the government or the ISPs have any
intention of doing away with that revenue stream. I've thought for some
time that the splitting of the charge into line rental and broadband is
increasingly arbitrary (and leads to many dishonest marketing
practices), but without legislation - from a government that knows what
it's doing, so that's a pipedream - it won't happen.

Splitting broadband and line rental for marketing purposes has been banned
https://www.ispreview.co.uk/index.php/2016/05/advert-watchdog-forces-uk-
isps-include-line-rental-broadband-price.html

Thanks; I wasn't aware that had been done!

Post by Theo
(there may be non-marketing places it still lurks, eg pricing breakdowns on
customers bills. But those breakdowns are largely fictional)

Oh, a PlusNet bill is labyrinthine. (Other ISPs may be too.)

Post by Theo
Theo

John

[Theo]

Post by J. P. Gilliver
In other words, you can watch iPlayer on your MONITOR, if you shell out
a few tens of pounds, and possibly more for an adaptor, AND have an
internet connection.
You can watch DVDs "on your TV" too. But not unless it has a DVD player
built-in or connected.

You can't watch broadcast programmes on your TV unless your house has an
aerial (or other connection) installed and your TV is suitably tuned. Some
level of investment is necessary to unlock the functionality. For many
people with smart TVs that investment will be limited to 5 minutes setting
it up.

Theo

[J. P. Gilliver]

Post by Theo

Post by J. P. Gilliver
In other words, you can watch iPlayer on your MONITOR, if you shell out
a few tens of pounds, and possibly more for an adaptor, AND have an
internet connection.
You can watch DVDs "on your TV" too. But not unless it has a DVD player
built-in or connected.

You can't watch broadcast programmes on your TV unless your house has an
aerial (or other connection) installed and your TV is suitably tuned. Some
level of investment is necessary to unlock the functionality. For many
people with smart TVs that investment will be limited to 5 minutes setting
it up.
Theo

Plus maintaining their broadband connection as well as the TV licence.
With an aerial, you only need the TV licence.

(If they have broadband _anyway_, fine - but not everyone does. Though I
think they should, and maybe the end of POTS will cause it.)

[Theo]

Post by J. P. Gilliver

Post by Theo
You can't watch broadcast programmes on your TV unless your house has an
aerial (or other connection) installed and your TV is suitably tuned. Some
level of investment is necessary to unlock the functionality. For many
people with smart TVs that investment will be limited to 5 minutes setting
it up.

Plus maintaining their broadband connection as well as the TV licence.
With an aerial, you only need the TV licence.

And you can only run a TV if you have electricity.

Post by J. P. Gilliver
(If they have broadband _anyway_, fine - but not everyone does. Though I
think they should, and maybe the end of POTS will cause it.)

Not everyone has electricity. Some people are off grid, others live in
caves. Where does this rabbit hole end?

(if you want X, it's up to you to arrange prerequisites Y and Z. If you
don't want X, then nobody is forcing you to have it or provide its
prerequisites)

Theo

[MB]

Post by Theo
Not everyone has electricity. Some people are off grid, others live in
caves. Where does this rabbit hole end?

How do they have broadband if no electricity.

[Mark Carver]

Post by Theo

Post by J. P. Gilliver

Post by Theo
You can't watch broadcast programmes on your TV unless your house has an
aerial (or other connection) installed and your TV is suitably tuned. Some
level of investment is necessary to unlock the functionality. For many
people with smart TVs that investment will be limited to 5 minutes setting
it up.

Plus maintaining their broadband connection as well as the TV licence.
With an aerial, you only need the TV licence.

And you can only run a TV if you have electricity.

In the 60s some areas of NW Scotland and the isles got electricity
around about the same time as TV signals arrived I think ?

[MB]

Post by Mark Carver
In the 60s some areas of NW Scotland and the isles got electricity
around about the same time as TV signals arrived I think ?

By that time it would be individual small communities, I don't think
there many larger communities with no electricity by then.

I can't think of any relays that came on at the same time as the
electricity supply.

What should have been the last analogue UHF relay (*) took over the
supply to a local self-help scheme.

(*) Another site became the last because the 'powers that be' did not
think a muddy site was a good place to take VIPs for the opening ceremony!

[charles]

Post by Mark Carver

Post by Theo

Post by J. P. Gilliver

Post by Theo
You can't watch broadcast programmes on your TV unless your house has
an aerial (or other connection) installed and your TV is suitably
tuned. Some level of investment is necessary to unlock the
functionality. For many people with smart TVs that investment will
be limited to 5 minutes setting it up.

Plus maintaining their broadband connection as well as the TV licence.
With an aerial, you only need the TV licence.

And you can only run a TV if you have electricity.

In the 60s some areas of NW Scotland and the isles got electricity
around about the same time as TV signals arrived I think ?

When I was on South Uist (mid '70s) checking new transmitter coverage, a
lady came out of her house and "we haven't got the electric". So, you're
right

[Roderick Stewart]

Post by charles

Post by Mark Carver
In the 60s some areas of NW Scotland and the isles got electricity
around about the same time as TV signals arrived I think ?

When I was on South Uist (mid '70s) checking new transmitter coverage, a
lady came out of her house and "we haven't got the electric". So, you're
right

In the 60s, a rented cottage near Aviemore that our family sometimes
went to on holiday only had 'the electric' in the toilet - an Ever
Ready 996 battery wired through a wall mounted switch to a 6 volt
torch bulb in a little batten holder on the ceiling. In the living
room when it began to get dark we lit the Tilley lamp.

Rod.

[Liz Tuddenham]

Post by Roderick Stewart

Post by charles

Post by Mark Carver
In the 60s some areas of NW Scotland and the isles got electricity
around about the same time as TV signals arrived I think ?

When I was on South Uist (mid '70s) checking new transmitter coverage, a
lady came out of her house and "we haven't got the electric". So, you're
right

In the 60s, a rented cottage near Aviemore that our family sometimes
went to on holiday only had 'the electric' in the toilet - an Ever
Ready 996 battery wired through a wall mounted switch to a 6 volt
torch bulb in a little batten holder on the ceiling. In the living
room when it began to get dark we lit the Tilley lamp.

Have you tried buying paraffin for Tilley lamps recently? Only one
shop around here stocks it now.

[Andy Burns]

Post by Liz Tuddenham
Have you tried buying paraffin for Tilley lamps recently? Only one
shop around here stocks it now.

B&Q do, and some garden centres, google says The Range, Homebase and
most heating oils suppliers ...

[Liz Tuddenham]

Post by Andy Burns

Post by Liz Tuddenham
Have you tried buying paraffin for Tilley lamps recently? Only one
shop around here stocks it now.

B&Q do, and some garden centres, google says The Range, Homebase and
most heating oils suppliers ...

Damn! There goes my excuse for not doing the ironing with my
paraffin-powered Tilley iron.

[MB]

Post by Liz Tuddenham
Damn! There goes my excuse for not doing the ironing with my
paraffin-powered Tilley iron.

It's OK, we have peat powered irons up here. :-)

[BrightsideS9]

Post by Liz Tuddenham

Post by Roderick Stewart

Post by charles

Post by Mark Carver
In the 60s some areas of NW Scotland and the isles got electricity
around about the same time as TV signals arrived I think ?

When I was on South Uist (mid '70s) checking new transmitter coverage, a
lady came out of her house and "we haven't got the electric". So, you're
right

In the 60s, a rented cottage near Aviemore that our family sometimes
went to on holiday only had 'the electric' in the toilet - an Ever
Ready 996 battery wired through a wall mounted switch to a 6 volt
torch bulb in a little batten holder on the ceiling. In the living
room when it began to get dark we lit the Tilley lamp.

Have you tried buying paraffin for Tilley lamps recently? Only one
shop around here stocks it now.

Yes, local garage still selle it. Dearer than petrol though. Why??

[MB]

Post by charles
When I was on South Uist (mid '70s) checking new transmitter coverage, a
lady came out of her house and "we haven't got the electric". So, you're
right

I think by that time, it would often be small groups of houses that were
below the threshold needed to get a transmitter,

[charles]

Post by MB

Post by charles
When I was on South Uist (mid '70s) checking new transmitter coverage, a
lady came out of her house and "we haven't got the electric". So, you're
right

I think by that time, it would often be small groups of houses that were
below the threshold needed to get a transmitter,

The 4 houses in that location were perfectly served for TV, just no mains
electricity

[Max Demian]

Post by J. P. Gilliver

Post by Theo

Post by J. P. Gilliver
Of course, the new text includes "You can watch BBC Four programmes at
any time on BBC iPlayer on your TV", which of course is untrue (I wonder
for what proportion of the viewership, especially of BBC4)?
[In other words, I wonder what proportion of TV sets actually in use are
both "smart" and actually connected.]

You can buy a box for a few tens of pounds to plug into your TV, which
allows you to watch iPlayer on your dumb TV.  I've done so for a CRT TV -
needed an extra HDMI to SCART converter as the box only had HDMI and the TV
only had analogue inputs.  But it worked fine.
So the statement is true: you *can*, you may just have to buy extra hardware
to do so.  (and have an internet connection, of course)
Theo

In other words, you can watch iPlayer on your MONITOR, if you shell out
a few tens of pounds, and possibly more for an adaptor, AND have an
internet connection.

I just connect my laptop to the TV with an HDMI lead.

[Brian Gaff]

Good question. I'd guess many gave up trying to update the apps on the smart
tv, and shoved in a firestick instead.
Brian
--
--:
This newsgroup posting comes to you directly from...
The Sofa of Brian Gaff...
***@blueyonder.co.uk
Blind user, so no pictures please
Note this Signature is meaningless.!

I just selected BBC4 (sorry, "BBC FOUR"), forgetting it wasn't on this time
of day.
I see they've changed the "card" - may have changed it months ago, but
obviously I don't see it that often!; it's now plain white text (and
logos) on (dark) blue, not the old white on black that included something
like "if you can still see programming through this, change channel and
come back", or similar.
Of course, the new text includes "You can watch BBC Four programmes at any
time on BBC iPlayer on your TV", which of course is untrue (I wonder for
what proportion of the viewership, especially of BBC4)?
[In other words, I wonder what proportion of TV sets actually in use are
both "smart" and actually connected.]
--
... each generation tends to imagine that its attitude to sex strikes just
about the right balance; that by comparison its predecessors were prim and
embarrassed, its successors sex-obsessed and pornified. - Julian Barnes, Radio
Times 9-15 March 2013

[Scott]

Post by J. P. Gilliver
I just selected BBC4 (sorry, "BBC FOUR"), forgetting it wasn't on this
time of day.
I see they've changed the "card" - may have changed it months ago, but
obviously I don't see it that often!; it's now plain white text (and
logos) on (dark) blue, not the old white on black that included
something like "if you can still see programming through this, change
channel and come back", or similar.
Of course, the new text includes "You can watch BBC Four programmes at
any time on BBC iPlayer on your TV", which of course is untrue (I wonder
for what proportion of the viewership, especially of BBC4)?
[In other words, I wonder what proportion of TV sets actually in use are
both "smart" and actually connected.]

<pedant_mode> You can watch 'the programmes' at any time just not
necessarily contemporaneous with broadcast just as you can watch films
on Netflix at any time /<pedant_mode>

[J. P. Gilliver]

[]

Post by Scott

Post by J. P. Gilliver
Of course, the new text includes "You can watch BBC Four programmes at
any time on BBC iPlayer on your TV", which of course is untrue (I wonder
for what proportion of the viewership, especially of BBC4)?
[In other words, I wonder what proportion of TV sets actually in use are
both "smart" and actually connected.]

<pedant_mode> You can watch 'the programmes' at any time just not
necessarily contemporaneous with broadcast just as you can watch films
on Netflix at any time /<pedant_mode>

<pedant>You can only "watch … iPlayer on your TV" if you have (a) a
smart TV (b) a broadband connection, and (c) the two are connected. The
incessant plugging of iPlayer (e. g. "press red to watch it") _never_
mentions any of these, all of which are _in addition to_ what the person
they are plugging it to has to have done to receive the plugs.</pedant>

I haven't seen the national lottery use the "it could be you"
advertising line for a while; I wonder if that's because it's incomplete
without "if you buy a ticket", and they'd had their knuckles rapped
and/or too many complaints.

I wondered about leaving off the "</pedant>", as I usually operate in
somewhat-pedant mode anyway. (-:

[Brian Gaff]

Well as I have said elsewhere, I think that in the main if I do have an
internet connection, I'd not use the wifi one for my Samsung since it seems
far more reliable directly wired to the router. However, said set only 2020
seems in its latest apps to have lost the ability to speak with the internal
voiceview or whatever Samsung call it, ie its fine on terrestrial and
settings, so most people seem to be going down the firestick route which of
course puts you back on wifi and adds yet another remote control to have to
find. Sigh.
Brian
--
--:
This newsgroup posting comes to you directly from...
The Sofa of Brian Gaff...
***@blueyonder.co.uk
Blind user, so no pictures please
Note this Signature is meaningless.!

[]

Post by Scott

Post by J. P. Gilliver
Of course, the new text includes "You can watch BBC Four programmes at
any time on BBC iPlayer on your TV", which of course is untrue (I wonder
for what proportion of the viewership, especially of BBC4)?
[In other words, I wonder what proportion of TV sets actually in use are
both "smart" and actually connected.]

<pedant_mode> You can watch 'the programmes' at any time just not
necessarily contemporaneous with broadcast just as you can watch films
on Netflix at any time /<pedant_mode>

<pedant>You can only "watch . iPlayer on your TV" if you have (a) a smart
TV (b) a broadband connection, and (c) the two are connected. The
incessant plugging of iPlayer (e. g. "press red to watch it") _never_
mentions any of these, all of which are _in addition to_ what the person
they are plugging it to has to have done to receive the plugs.</pedant>
I haven't seen the national lottery use the "it could be you" advertising
line for a while; I wonder if that's because it's incomplete without "if
you buy a ticket", and they'd had their knuckles rapped and/or too many
complaints.
I wondered about leaving off the "</pedant>", as I usually operate in
--
My friend David had his ID stolen - now he's just Dav

[Roderick Stewart]

You don't have to use wi-fi with a Firestick. They do an ethernet
adaptor for about £15 specifically designed for their Firesticks, as
it has a 5V power input.

I couldn't easily get ethernet to my AV reck, but a wi-fi bridge with
external aerials on top of it gets a good signal, so I distribute this
by ethernet to everything within the rack that requires it.

If you get the superduperdeluxe Fire remote control, one of its
features is that you can tell Alexa to find it and it will make a
noise of some sort, though as I don't use Alexa myself I haven't been
able to try this.

Rod

On Tue, 11 Jul 2023 11:31:24 +0100, "Brian Gaff"

Post by Brian Gaff
Well as I have said elsewhere, I think that in the main if I do have an
internet connection, I'd not use the wifi one for my Samsung since it seems
far more reliable directly wired to the router. However, said set only 2020
seems in its latest apps to have lost the ability to speak with the internal
voiceview or whatever Samsung call it, ie its fine on terrestrial and
settings, so most people seem to be going down the firestick route which of
course puts you back on wifi and adds yet another remote control to have to
find. Sigh.
Brian

[Andy Burns]

Post by Roderick Stewart
You don't have to use wi-fi with a Firestick. They do an ethernet
adaptor

similar for chromecasts, you can either use a USB PSU with inbuilt
ethernet port, or use a USB hub and the plug an ethernet dongle (and
keyboard if required) into the hub (I haven't tried the hub method).

[Brian Gaff]

No maybe, but shoving it into the mains can cause a lot of RF interference.
Brian
--
--:
This newsgroup posting comes to you directly from...
The Sofa of Brian Gaff...
***@blueyonder.co.uk
Blind user, so no pictures please
Note this Signature is meaningless.!

Post by Andy Burns

Post by Roderick Stewart
You don't have to use wi-fi with a Firestick. They do an ethernet
adaptor

similar for chromecasts, you can either use a USB PSU with inbuilt
ethernet port, or use a USB hub and the plug an ethernet dongle (and
keyboard if required) into the hub (I haven't tried the hub method).

[Andy Burns]

Post by Brian Gaff
No maybe, but shoving it into the mains can cause a lot of RF interference.

It's not a data-over-mains solution, the SMPSU horse is well and truly
out of sight of the stables