Clyde 2 RIP

On Tue, 17 Jan 2023 12:38:07 +0000, Scott

Post by Scott
I now see he is joining Greatest Hits Radio so the retirement is fake
news, probably perpetrated by the BBC.
I also see that Clyde 2 is to be rebranded as 'Greatest Hits Radio
Glasgow and the West' (along with the other Bauer Scotland stations.
Hits Radio

Sorry about first post, sent in error.

More here:
https://radiotoday.co.uk/2023/01/12/bauer-to-rebrand-seven-heritage-scottish-stations-to-greatest-hits-radio/

Brian Gaff

2023-01-17 16:46:34 UTC

Yes well are you surprised? The fact is that nobody wants to advertise on
radio anymore and are not sure what the demographic is either. You cannot go
it alone unless you have a big catchments area, and even then those who own
stations want, at some point to profit from their venture and sell it to one
of the two main companies who then aggressively go in and make as much as
they can networked to save money.
What about Radio Jackie in SW London, has that got long to run.
I remember the brave new world at the start of commercial radio. Lots of
fairly modest operations with interesting programming and interesting
presenters. Gradually all succumbed to network stations with the odd opt
out.
Its really a shame we cannot find a way to run stations cheaply on air.
Many exist on the internet of course, and I know many of those would love to
have a transmitter if it were not prohibitively expensive.

Brian
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2023-01-17 19:35:27 UTC

Post by Brian Gaff
Its really a shame we cannot find a way to run stations cheaply on air.
Many exist on the internet of course, and I know many of those would love to
have a transmitter if it were not prohibitively expensive.

I can't see why the big commercial radio stations don't just run one
programme with digitised speech that has the accent of the area it is
serving.

Brian Gaff

2023-01-18 13:25:02 UTC

Oh no please. I have some of those voices. They really are still pants.
There are some audio described tv shows on now using artificial speech for
this. They are not very good, I can tell you.
Try installing Espeak, and setting it tto west midlands if you want a
laugh.
Brian
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Post by MB

I can't see why the big commercial radio stations don't just run one
programme with digitised speech that has the accent of the area it is
serving.

2023-01-18 14:33:41 UTC

Post by Brian Gaff
Oh no please. I have some of those voices. They really are still pants.
There are some audio described tv shows on now using artificial speech for
this. They are not very good, I can tell you.
Try installing Espeak, and setting it tto west midlands if you want a
laugh.
Brian

Can't be any worse than the commercial radio style presenters, some of
whom manage to get onto the BBC.

Scott

2023-01-18 15:38:55 UTC

On Tue, 17 Jan 2023 16:46:34 -0000, "Brian Gaff"

Post by Brian Gaff
Yes well are you surprised?

Yes, because the name 'Clyde' is distinctive and stands out from the
rest - more so that 'The Greatest Hits, Glasgow and the West'.

Post by Brian Gaff
The fact is that nobody wants to advertise on
radio anymore and are not sure what the demographic is either. You cannot go
it alone unless you have a big catchments area

There is no change to the catchment areas. The Bauer so-called 'City
2' stations already operate as a network and it is perfectly possible
to advertise across the network. The pretence that you are listening
to your local station is probably a plus point.

Post by Brian Gaff
and even then those who own
stations want, at some point to profit from their venture and sell it to one
of the two main companies who then aggressively go in and make as much as
they can networked to save money

It is networked already with local jingles and (some) local
advertising inserted by computer at no cost. Where are the savings?
.

Post by Brian Gaff
What about Radio Jackie in SW London, has that got long to run.
I remember the brave new world at the start of commercial radio. Lots of
fairly modest operations with interesting programming and interesting
presenters. Gradually all succumbed to network stations with the odd opt
out.
Its really a shame we cannot find a way to run stations cheaply on air.
Many exist on the internet of course, and I know many of those would love to
have a transmitter if it were not prohibitively expensive.

I agree with that. I remember Radio Trent was very good, and I
believe it was made cheaply, The problem was that the audience became
too large, which escalated royalty payments to unaffordable levels.

John Williamson

2023-01-18 18:15:18 UTC

The expensive bit is the transmitter, and given the power they need and
the rent you have to pay that's not going to get any cheaper. DAB could
be cheaper, as the major cost is the power, which is shared between all
the users, but I suspect Arqiva would have words if anyone tried to
undercut them.

Another major cost is the music licencing. Last time I checked, for a
low power restricted licence station, it was going to cost about two
grand a month for PRS and the same for MCPS. That's a lot of advertising
you need to sell.

A lot of the early commercial stations used DJs from local clubs who
used their show to advertise their gigs, or were supporters of a
particular genre, and were happy to work for nothing.

--
Tciao for Now!

John.

Brian Gaff

2023-01-20 16:13:16 UTC

That cost is really stupid. They are not giving the dosh to the actual
performers in any case, its just a money making scheme for the old lags in
the big recording organisation.

Surely the rates should be based on the catchment area, not some national
rate. In some countries they just pay one lump sum for the year, not any
logging or anything.
Brian
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The expensive bit is the transmitter, and given the power they need and
the rent you have to pay that's not going to get any cheaper. DAB could be
cheaper, as the major cost is the power, which is shared between all the
users, but I suspect Arqiva would have words if anyone tried to undercut
them.
Another major cost is the music licencing. Last time I checked, for a low
power restricted licence station, it was going to cost about two grand a
month for PRS and the same for MCPS. That's a lot of advertising you need
to sell.
A lot of the early commercial stations used DJs from local clubs who used
their show to advertise their gigs, or were supporters of a particular
genre, and were happy to work for nothing.
--
Tciao for Now!
John.

John Williamson

2023-01-20 16:26:14 UTC

Those were the rates for a catchment area about 5 to 10 miles across. I
would have been allowed a whole watt on AM and the transmitting antenna
on FM could be no more than 10 metres above ground level, with a maximum
power of 25 watts.

Post by Brian Gaff
That cost is really stupid. They are not giving the dosh to the actual
performers in any case, its just a money making scheme for the old lags in
the big recording organisation.
Surely the rates should be based on the catchment area, not some national
rate. In some countries they just pay one lump sum for the year, not any
logging or anything.
Brian

--
Tciao for Now!

John.

Scott

2023-01-20 16:37:58 UTC

On Fri, 20 Jan 2023 16:13:16 -0000, "Brian Gaff"

Is it not the case that there are three copyrights: composer,
performer and mechanical rights that are not necessarily owned by the
same person? Rights can be sold, or not. I don't think think you can
say that all the money is going to 'old lags'.

John Williamson

2023-01-20 18:01:28 UTC

Post by Scott
Is it not the case that there are three copyrights: composer,
performer and mechanical rights that are not necessarily owned by the
same person? Rights can be sold, or not. I don't think think you can
say that all the money is going to 'old lags'.

In theory, yes, but to get the money directly to the copyright owners,
you may need to find every single performer and everyone else involved,
such as the engineer and writers, or whoever now owns that bit of the
copyright, and negotiate a fee. If anyone says "No", you've wasted your
time. If they are not British, it's a worldwide search.

Last time I was looking at setting up a Restricted Service Licence
station, I needed three licences. PRS to play music or other recorded
material, MCPS to stream or record it, and the OfCOM one to turn the
transmitter on.

PRS and MCPS act to collect copyright fees on behalf of their members,
but unfortunately, the way they work it out, the popular people get
lot, while if you don't hit the targets for airplay or sales, you get
nothing. If you don't join you get nothing.

I remember a small station that started up in West London many years
ago, who played a very strange selection of music, so I started digging,
and found out that what they were playing was by performers who were not
PRS members, so they didn't need to pay a licence fee, as long as they
had permission from the copyright owners. Sending a sample disc or tape
was taken as consent.

--
Tciao for Now!

John.

Scott

2023-01-20 18:10:02 UTC

On Fri, 20 Jan 2023 18:01:28 +0000, John Williamson

Is it not the other way round, unless the station has consent they
cannot play the track?

Post by John Williamson
Last time I was looking at setting up a Restricted Service Licence
station, I needed three licences. PRS to play music or other recorded
material, MCPS to stream or record it, and the OfCOM one to turn the
transmitter on.
PRS and MCPS act to collect copyright fees on behalf of their members,
but unfortunately, the way they work it out, the popular people get
lot, while if you don't hit the targets for airplay or sales, you get
nothing. If you don't join you get nothing.

Do you mean they get a lot because their work is played more often,
which seems perfectly reasonable, or do you mean they attract a higher
copyright fee per play? How would that work because at the start of
their careers, clearly they would not be popular?

Post by John Williamson
I remember a small station that started up in West London many years
ago, who played a very strange selection of music, so I started digging,
and found out that what they were playing was by performers who were not
PRS members, so they didn't need to pay a licence fee, as long as they
had permission from the copyright owners. Sending a sample disc or tape
was taken as consent.

John Williamson

2023-01-20 18:40:04 UTC

Post by Scott
On Fri, 20 Jan 2023 18:01:28 +0000, John Williamson

Is it not the other way round, unless the station has consent they
cannot play the track?

That's whay I said. By accpeting the fee, they give consent is they say
"No", then there is no consent so you can;t play it.

If you are using PRS governed material, then permission is deemed to be
granted by you paying the PRS licence fee. In that case, you are allowed
to play it unless the copyright owner expresses an objection, as one
star did during a recent election.

Post by Scott
Do you mean they get a lot because their work is played more often,
which seems perfectly reasonable, or do you mean they attract a higher
copyright fee per play? How would that work because at the start of
their careers, clearly they would not be popular?

That is a major whinge from those starting up in the business, yes.

The way it's worked out, as far as I cam tell, is that PRS get a summary
of airplay from the stations (IIRC, weighted by average audience
numbers), sellers and streamers of what's been played, they allocate the
licence fee in proportion to the total plays, sales and streams, the
deduct a fixed admin fee. They don't charge you if your share is too
small to pay the fee, but you don't get much if anything if it's
marginal. Rod Stewart and Noddy Holder don't notice the fee, but that
band you just heard for the first time on the "Introducing" local radio
section might get a gig fee if they're lucky.

--
Tciao for Now!

John.

Scott

2023-01-20 19:06:29 UTC

On Fri, 20 Jan 2023 18:40:04 +0000, John Williamson

Post by Scott
On Fri, 20 Jan 2023 18:01:28 +0000, John Williamson

Is it not the other way round, unless the station has consent they
cannot play the track?

That's whay I said. By accpeting the fee, they give consent is they say
"No", then there is no consent so you can;t play it.

All I meant was that in practical terms unless the station knows that
consent is in place, they will simply not play the record. There is
no way that an ordinary radio station will chase around to find
performers, engineers, writers or anyone else and then negotiate a
fee. Perhaps in a Hollywood movie.

Post by John Williamson
If you are using PRS governed material, then permission is deemed to be
granted by you paying the PRS licence fee. In that case, you are allowed
to play it unless the copyright owner expresses an objection, as one
star did during a recent election.

That is a major whinge from those starting up in the business, yes.
The way it's worked out, as far as I cam tell, is that PRS get a summary
of airplay from the stations (IIRC, weighted by average audience
numbers), sellers and streamers of what's been played, they allocate the
licence fee in proportion to the total plays, sales and streams, the
deduct a fixed admin fee. They don't charge you if your share is too
small to pay the fee, but you don't get much if anything if it's
marginal. Rod Stewart and Noddy Holder don't notice the fee, but that
band you just heard for the first time on the "Introducing" local radio
section might get a gig fee if they're lucky.

John Williamson

2023-01-20 19:57:50 UTC

Post by Scott
All I meant was that in practical terms unless the station knows that
consent is in place, they will simply not play the record. There is
no way that an ordinary radio station will chase around to find
performers, engineers, writers or anyone else and then negotiate a
fee. Perhaps in a Hollywood movie.

That's what PRS and the MCPS are paid to do, They have authority from
the copyright holders to collect fees and grant permissions. If I want
to record a copy of, say, a Beatles song, I speak to the MCPS, they tell
me the fee per copy, and they apportion it according to their agreement.
(Normal fee for the writer is, I think, 8% of the retail price, and the
arranger gets a guaranteed slice as well.)In effect, as long as you have
a licence for your use of the material (Anything from background radio
in a taxi to music for a high profile TV advert), you assume permission
is there. The fee is based on the use, and for the adverts, each use is
separately negotiated.

If I want to play music on the radio, TV or anywhere else outside the
home, I speak to PRS, who sell me a licence and grant permission to play
whatever I wish for a block fee. I just have to tell them what I've
played if it is broadcast.

The only other legal way is to negotiate with everyone involved, which,
as you say, radio and TV stations don't have time to do.

--
Tciao for Now!

John.

Scott

2023-01-20 21:07:54 UTC

On Fri, 20 Jan 2023 19:57:50 +0000, John Williamson

Exactly my point. It confused me when you said 'you may need to find
every single performer and everyone else involved, such as the
engineer and writers, or whoever now owns that bit of the copyright,
and negotiate a fee'. I thought you were suggesting the station did
this.

Post by John Williamson
If I want to play music on the radio, TV or anywhere else outside the
home, I speak to PRS, who sell me a licence and grant permission to play
whatever I wish for a block fee. I just have to tell them what I've
played if it is broadcast.
The only other legal way is to negotiate with everyone involved, which,
as you say, radio and TV stations don't have time to do.

John Williamson

2023-01-20 21:34:02 UTC

Post by Scott
Exactly my point. It confused me when you said 'you may need to find
every single performer and everyone else involved, such as the
engineer and writers, or whoever now owns that bit of the copyright,
and negotiate a fee'. I thought you were suggesting the station did
this.

I was merely suggesting a possible way to make sure the creators of the
work got their money without paying a cut to PRS and MCPS.

--
Tciao for Now!

John.

Scott

2023-01-21 10:07:54 UTC

On Fri, 20 Jan 2023 21:34:02 +0000, John Williamson

I was merely suggesting a possible way to make sure the creators of the
work got their money without paying a cut to PRS and MCPS.

Okay, I misunderstood your point. I thought you were suggesting this
as a practical option.

Liz Tuddenham

2023-01-20 18:54:33 UTC

John Williamson <***@btinternet.com> wrote:

[...]

I do the music for a fête each year; to avoid paying any PRS fees, I use
entirely non-copyright music from pre-1930s 78s and even wax cylinders.
I carry a list of every title and its copyright status, just in case I
am ever challenged.

So far the music has received nothing but compliments from the public,
who think it sounds appropriate for a village fête, but one of the
organisers has complained and wants me to play country & western music
next year. She says she is prepared to pay the PRS fee.

--
~ Liz Tuddenham ~
(Remove the ".invalid"s and add ".co.uk" to reply)
www.poppyrecords.co.uk

Scott

2023-01-20 19:24:16 UTC

Post by Liz Tuddenham
[...]

I do the music for a fête each year; to avoid paying any PRS fees, I use
entirely non-copyright music from pre-1930s 78s and even wax cylinders.
I carry a list of every title and its copyright status, just in case I
am ever challenged.
So far the music has received nothing but compliments from the public,
who think it sounds appropriate for a village fête, but one of the
organisers has complained and wants me to play country & western music
next year. She says she is prepared to pay the PRS fee.

Reminds me of when I met a former colleague (AM) and we started
chatting. She said she was going to a musical that evening. The
conversation went roughly like this:

Me - You really like your music, don't you?
AM - I like all kinds of music
Me - Not folk though, I assume
AM - No, not folk, or country
Me - The best thing about country is that it's not as bad as folk
AM - That's true

Liz Tuddenham

2023-01-21 11:30:15 UTC

Post by Scott

Post by Liz Tuddenham
[...]

I do the music for a fête each year; to avoid paying any PRS fees, I use
entirely non-copyright music from pre-1930s 78s and even wax cylinders.
I carry a list of every title and its copyright status, just in case I
am ever challenged.
So far the music has received nothing but compliments from the public,
who think it sounds appropriate for a village fête, but one of the
organisers has complained and wants me to play country & western music
next year. She says she is prepared to pay the PRS fee.

Reminds me of when I met a former colleague (AM) and we started
chatting. She said she was going to a musical that evening. The
Me - You really like your music, don't you?
AM - I like all kinds of music
Me - Not folk though, I assume
AM - No, not folk, or country
Me - The best thing about country is that it's not as bad as folk
AM - That's true

Some of the music I play is folk music, but not the modern American
commercial rubbish. This is English music played by people who spent
their whole lives performing it on unaccompanied instruments for village
dances and other entertainments. Brass bands recorded well by the
acoustic process, pre-1922, so they appear a lot in the old record
catalogues, playing dance music and instrumental versions of popular
tunes.

It's the sort of music you never hear on the radio nowadays, but it has
a charm that creates a lovely atmosphere for English village fêtes.
Country & Western is anything but charming - and would destroy the
atmosphere completely.

--
~ Liz Tuddenham ~
(Remove the ".invalid"s and add ".co.uk" to reply)
www.poppyrecords.co.uk

charles

2023-01-20 17:38:32 UTC

Post by Scott
On Fri, 20 Jan 2023 16:13:16 -0000, "Brian Gaff"

Rights can be handed down, too. I know a "young man" who gets the royalies
from his late father's tv repeats

--
from KT24 in Surrey, England - sent from my RISC OS 4té
"I'd rather die of exhaustion than die of boredom" Thomas Carlyle

Liz Tuddenham

2023-01-20 18:45:17 UTC

Post by Scott
On Fri, 20 Jan 2023 16:13:16 -0000, "Brian Gaff"

Composer
Lyricist
Arranger
Performer(s)
Recording company employees in different capacities, whose rights are
usually signed over to their employer. Sometimes the composer's rights
are signed over to a publishing house if the song was bought outright
(rare nowadays)

In the case of a transfer from one medium to another, there may also be
rights of the transfer engineer if he or she added value to the
production.

The rights last 50 years after the death of the owner in some cases and
70 years in others.

--
~ Liz Tuddenham ~
(Remove the ".invalid"s and add ".co.uk" to reply)
www.poppyrecords.co.uk

Scott

2023-01-20 19:09:01 UTC

Post by Scott
On Fri, 20 Jan 2023 16:13:16 -0000, "Brian Gaff"

Composer
Lyricist
Arranger
Performer(s)
Recording company employees in different capacities, whose rights are
usually signed over to their employer. Sometimes the composer's rights
are signed over to a publishing house if the song was bought outright
(rare nowadays)
In the case of a transfer from one medium to another, there may also be
rights of the transfer engineer if he or she added value to the
production.
The rights last 50 years after the death of the owner in some cases and
70 years in others.

Does the PRS take all this into consideration in their charging or do
they average it as a flat fee per record played? As an example, does
Gold pay different amounts for each track or do they just pay an
amount per track and let PRS sort it out?

Liz Tuddenham

2023-01-21 11:30:16 UTC

Post by Scott

Post by Scott
On Fri, 20 Jan 2023 16:13:16 -0000, "Brian Gaff"

Composer
Lyricist
Arranger
Performer(s)
Recording company employees in different capacities, whose rights are
usually signed over to their employer. Sometimes the composer's rights
are signed over to a publishing house if the song was bought outright
(rare nowadays)
In the case of a transfer from one medium to another, there may also be
rights of the transfer engineer if he or she added value to the
production.
The rights last 50 years after the death of the owner in some cases and
70 years in others.

I think PRS just does it the easy way, on a total time basis. Then they
tip it into a pot and portion it out among the top 20 earners. I've
never had anything from them and yet I know my work has been broadcast.

There used to be an ISRC code embedded in CDs. that was supposed to
automatically trigger the studio equipment into logging the copyright
owner and the time played. Although my CD burner has provision for
embedding it, I've never been able to find anything that can read it.

--
~ Liz Tuddenham ~
(Remove the ".invalid"s and add ".co.uk" to reply)
www.poppyrecords.co.uk

Scott

2023-01-21 16:51:26 UTC

Post by Scott

Post by Scott
On Fri, 20 Jan 2023 16:13:16 -0000, "Brian Gaff"

Composer
Lyricist
Arranger
Performer(s)
Recording company employees in different capacities, whose rights are
usually signed over to their employer. Sometimes the composer's rights
are signed over to a publishing house if the song was bought outright
(rare nowadays)
In the case of a transfer from one medium to another, there may also be
rights of the transfer engineer if he or she added value to the
production.
The rights last 50 years after the death of the owner in some cases and
70 years in others.

I think PRS just does it the easy way, on a total time basis. Then they
tip it into a pot and portion it out among the top 20 earners. I've
never had anything from them and yet I know my work has been broadcast.
There used to be an ISRC code embedded in CDs. that was supposed to
automatically trigger the studio equipment into logging the copyright
owner and the time played. Although my CD burner has provision for
embedding it, I've never been able to find anything that can read it.

In stations like Gold (you should try it sometime folks) I assume it
is all done by computer.

I'm still puzzled how they time the jingles to end before the lyrics
start.

John Williamson

2023-01-21 17:24:06 UTC

Post by Scott
In stations like Gold (you should try it sometime folks) I assume it
is all done by computer.
I'm still puzzled how they time the jingles to end before the lyrics
start.

Someone listens with a stopwatch in their hand, then adds the
information to the metadata in the file on the computer. The playout
program then times the jingle to start at the right time.

--
Tciao for Now!

John.

Scott

2023-01-21 17:50:23 UTC

On Sat, 21 Jan 2023 17:24:06 +0000, John Williamson

Post by Scott
In stations like Gold (you should try it sometime folks) I assume it
is all done by computer.
I'm still puzzled how they time the jingles to end before the lyrics
start.

Someone listens with a stopwatch in their hand, then adds the
information to the metadata in the file on the computer. The playout
program then times the jingle to start at the right time.

A one-time set-up then. That makes sense. Does it also fade the
intro for the duration of the jingle?

John Williamson

2023-01-21 18:00:36 UTC

Post by Scott
On Sat, 21 Jan 2023 17:24:06 +0000, John Williamson

Post by Scott
In stations like Gold (you should try it sometime folks) I assume it
is all done by computer.
I'm still puzzled how they time the jingles to end before the lyrics
start.

Someone listens with a stopwatch in their hand, then adds the
information to the metadata in the file on the computer. The playout
program then times the jingle to start at the right time.

A one-time set-up then. That makes sense. Does it also fade the
intro for the duration of the jingle?

The playout programs are quite versatile and easy to program.

--
Tciao for Now!

John.

Scott

2023-01-21 18:53:48 UTC

On Sat, 21 Jan 2023 18:00:36 +0000, John Williamson

Post by Scott
On Sat, 21 Jan 2023 17:24:06 +0000, John Williamson