Long wave

Post by Brian Gaff
I thought the Radio 4 was going? I notice its still there, and just next
to it is a foreign station. I don't recognise the language though. Brian

"However, separate scheduling of BBC radio programmes on long wave will
end in March next year - for example Test Match Special will not be
available on long wave."

https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/business-66644709

Marco Moock

2023-10-03 12:28:03 UTC

Post by Brian Gaff
I thought the Radio 4 was going?

There are plans, current rumor is March 2024.

Post by Brian Gaff
I notice its still there, and just next to it is a foreign station.

189 is Iceland an 207 is Morocco, but both will be very weak in the UK.

Mark Carver

2023-10-03 15:32:20 UTC

Post by Brian Gaff
I thought the Radio 4 was going?

There are plans, current rumor is March 2024.

The BBC keep changing their minds. They've updated the announcement
today carried on 198 LW to, 'Separate Programmes will cease after March
31 2024.

Last week they were saying all programmes on LW would cease before March
31st 2024

--
Mark
Please replace invalid and invalid with gmx and net to reply.

John Williamson

2023-10-03 15:42:23 UTC

Post by Brian Gaff
I thought the Radio 4 was going?

There are plans, current rumor is March 2024.

The BBC keep changing their minds. They've updated the announcement
today carried on 198 LW to, 'Separate Programmes will cease after March
31 2024.
Last week they were saying all programmes on LW would cease before March
31st 2024

The switch off date depends on how long the electricity suppliers need
the signal to transmit their switching codes, (They use it for a lot
more than just dual tariff meter switching) and how much they are
willing to pay towards the cost of running the transmitters. The only
problems for the BBC are the programme licencing deals and their
percentage of what Arqiva are charging.

--
Tciao for Now!

John.

Mark Carver

2023-10-03 16:32:51 UTC

Post by John Williamson

I thought the Radio 4 was going?

There are plans, current rumor is March 2024.

The BBC keep changing their minds. They've updated the announcement
today carried on 198 LW to, 'Separate Programmes will cease after March
31 2024.
Last week they were saying all programmes on LW would cease before March
31st 2024

There's a school of thought that the BBC will simply hand the 198 LW
transmitters over to the electricity industry on March 31, in which case
all audio broadcasting will cease, and there will just be a silent phase
modulated carrier.

Similar to the 162 LW Tx in France

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/ALS162_time_signal

--
Mark
Please replace invalid and invalid with gmx and net to reply.

Scott

2023-10-03 16:58:02 UTC

On Tue, 3 Oct 2023 17:32:51 +0100, Mark Carver

Post by John Williamson

I thought the Radio 4 was going?

There are plans, current rumor is March 2024.

The BBC keep changing their minds. They've updated the announcement
today carried on 198 LW to, 'Separate Programmes will cease after March
31 2024.
Last week they were saying all programmes on LW would cease before March
31st 2024

Would this reduce power consumption?

Post by Mark Carver
Similar to the 162 LW Tx in France
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/ALS162_time_signal

Mark Carver

2023-10-03 17:56:50 UTC

Post by Mark Carver
There's a school of thought that the BBC will simply hand the 198 LW
transmitters over to the electricity industry on March 31, in which case
all audio broadcasting will cease, and there will just be a silent phase
modulated carrier.

Would this reduce power consumption?

Not really, no. However, they might consider reducing the power, as the
RX detection required is PM rather than AM ?

--
Mark
Please replace invalid and invalid with gmx and net to reply.

J. P. Gilliver

2023-10-03 17:52:41 UTC

Post by Scott
On Tue, 3 Oct 2023 17:32:51 +0100, Mark Carver

[]

Would this reduce power consumption?

[]
Slightly, if the power radiated is the same as that which was radiated
when the audio modulation was silent. I figure this thus - please
challenge me - it's a _long_ time since I did this sort of theory:

Assuming 100% audio modulation, you'd have RF going out from twice the
voltage (at the peaks of the audio) down to zero (at the troughs of the
audio). Twice the voltage is four times the power. Thus you'd always use
more on the positive (modulation sense) audio excursions than you'd save
on the negative excursions.

In spectrum terms, unmodulated carrier is a peak at the nominal power;
modulation adds two sidebands at (if a pure sine tone modulation, 100%
modulation depth) half the amplitude, without removing the carrier -
thus representing power that has to come from somewhere.

In practice, (a) 100% modulation is avoided because of the danger of
clipping (which as well as distorting the audio as received, tends to
generate out-of-band products), and (b) even if it was, the programme
material - especially Radio 4, which is mostly speech with its
consequent gaps - is far from anywhere near whatever maximum modulation
_is_ used anyway for most of the time.

So - _if_ the unmodulated carrier used is the same power as that used
now when the audio is silent - yes, removing the modulation _will_ use
less power - though by quite a small proportion. (Though of hundreds of
kW, probably still noticeable!)

If they decide to up the power to what it was at peak positive
modulation, we're in a different game - but since it works at the
present level, they'd need a very good justification to do so.

--
J. P. Gilliver. UMRA: 1960/<1985 MB++G()AL-IS-Ch++(p)***@T+H+Sh0!:`)DNAf

If it jams - force it. If it breaks, it needed replacing anyway.

Liz Tuddenham

2023-10-03 20:47:47 UTC

Post by J. P. Gilliver

Post by Scott
On Tue, 3 Oct 2023 17:32:51 +0100, Mark Carver

[]

Would this reduce power consumption?

[]
Slightly, if the power radiated is the same as that which was radiated
when the audio modulation was silent. I figure this thus - please
Assuming 100% audio modulation, you'd have RF going out from twice the
voltage (at the peaks of the audio) down to zero (at the troughs of the
audio). Twice the voltage is four times the power. Thus you'd always use
more on the positive (modulation sense) audio excursions than you'd save
on the negative excursions.
In spectrum terms, unmodulated carrier is a peak at the nominal power;
modulation adds two sidebands at (if a pure sine tone modulation, 100%
modulation depth) half the amplitude, without removing the carrier -
thus representing power that has to come from somewhere.
In practice, (a) 100% modulation is avoided because of the danger of
clipping (which as well as distorting the audio as received, tends to
generate out-of-band products), and (b) even if it was, the programme
material - especially Radio 4, which is mostly speech with its
consequent gaps - is far from anywhere near whatever maximum modulation
_is_ used anyway for most of the time.
So - _if_ the unmodulated carrier used is the same power as that used
now when the audio is silent - yes, removing the modulation _will_ use
less power - though by quite a small proportion. (Though of hundreds of
kW, probably still noticeable!)
If they decide to up the power to what it was at peak positive
modulation, we're in a different game - but since it works at the
present level, they'd need a very good justification to do so.

For a long while, I seem to remember, Docherty modulation was used,
which was a lot more efficient than using a Class-B audio amplifier.
Nowadays they probably use something similar but with switching, so the
modulator losses are even lower. If the modulator is a separate unit
and they switch it off altogether, there will be no modulator losses at
all.

There will also be a saving in the cost of running the audio links to
the transmitter site.

--
~ Liz Tuddenham ~
(Remove the ".invalid"s and add ".co.uk" to reply)
www.poppyrecords.co.uk

J. P. Gilliver

2023-10-03 22:44:03 UTC

In message <1qi1o36.twwkh4rxiyusN%***@poppyrecords.invalid.invalid> at
Tue, 3 Oct 2023 21:47:47, Liz Tuddenham
[]

Post by J. P. Gilliver
So - _if_ the unmodulated carrier used is the same power as that used
now when the audio is silent - yes, removing the modulation _will_ use
less power - though by quite a small proportion. (Though of hundreds of
kW, probably still noticeable!)
If they decide to up the power to what it was at peak positive
modulation, we're in a different game - but since it works at the
present level, they'd need a very good justification to do so.

I was assuming perfect efficiency of the modulator: basically, just
looking at what was (is) radiated. If the unmodulated signal they
eventually radiate (other than the phase modulation, which is there now)
is not any stronger than the modulated signal is now when there is a
pause in the audio, then yes, removing modulation will represent a
(small in practice) reduction in power, since no sidebands will be
present/radiated.

Post by Liz Tuddenham
There will also be a saving in the cost of running the audio links to
the transmitter site.

And many other _administrative_ savings. I was answering the question of
_power_. (OK, the power to run the distribution links enters into it,
but compared to the radiated power, pretty small.)

--
J. P. Gilliver. UMRA: 1960/<1985 MB++G()AL-IS-Ch++(p)***@T+H+Sh0!:`)DNAf

When I went to see Biddy Baxter [Blue Peter's editor] and told her I was
pregnant, her first reaction was 'Oh good, another viewer'. - Janet Ellis, RT
2016/2/27-3/4

JMB99

2023-10-04 09:23:46 UTC

Post by J. P. Gilliver
And many other _administrative_ savings. I was answering the question of
_power_. (OK, the power to run the distribution links enters into it,
but compared to the radiated power, pretty small.)

I suppose it depends on whether the sites would continue to be used for
other services.

If the sites can be closed then there would be huge savings.

Scott

2023-10-04 09:59:27 UTC

I suppose it depends on whether the sites would continue to be used for
other services.
If the sites can be closed then there would be huge savings.

Even better, I think the site at Droitwich could be sold at a massive
profit for housing development.

Does anyone know if Arqiva owns the site outright or occupies it on a
long lease. If the latter, does the BBC retain ownership? It could be
owned by almost anyone, I suppose, these days.

Robin

2023-10-04 10:22:34 UTC

I suppose it depends on whether the sites would continue to be used for
other services.
If the sites can be closed then there would be huge savings.

Even better, I think the site at Droitwich could be sold at a massive
profit for housing development.
Does anyone know if Arqiva owns the site outright or occupies it on a
long lease. If the latter, does the BBC retain ownership? It could be
owned by almost anyone, I suppose, these days.

The site was definitely green belt land 10 years ago. Has that changed?

--
Robin
reply-to address is (intended to be) valid

Liz Tuddenham

2023-10-04 12:12:40 UTC

I suppose it depends on whether the sites would continue to be used for
other services.
If the sites can be closed then there would be huge savings.

Even better, I think the site at Droitwich could be sold at a massive
profit for housing development.
Does anyone know if Arqiva owns the site outright or occupies it on a
long lease. If the latter, does the BBC retain ownership? It could be
owned by almost anyone, I suppose, these days.

The site was definitely green belt land 10 years ago. Has that changed?

Wasn't there some change in the planning laws recently, that weakened
the status of Green Belts to the point where Councils can now give
planning permission to build on them? ...was it 'fake news' or have I
mis-remembered hearing it?

Certainly, around this area, large housing estates are being built on
land that was generally considered sacrosanct (although I cannot swear
it had Green Belt status).

--
~ Liz Tuddenham ~
(Remove the ".invalid"s and add ".co.uk" to reply)
www.poppyrecords.co.uk

Robin

2023-10-04 13:02:44 UTC

I suppose it depends on whether the sites would continue to be used for
other services.
If the sites can be closed then there would be huge savings.

Even better, I think the site at Droitwich could be sold at a massive
profit for housing development.
Does anyone know if Arqiva owns the site outright or occupies it on a
long lease. If the latter, does the BBC retain ownership? It could be
owned by almost anyone, I suppose, these days.

The site was definitely green belt land 10 years ago. Has that changed?

Wasn't there some change in the planning laws recently, that weakened
the status of Green Belts to the point where Councils can now give
planning permission to build on them? ...was it 'fake news' or have I
mis-remembered hearing it?
Certainly, around this area, large housing estates are being built on
land that was generally considered sacrosanct (although I cannot swear
it had Green Belt status).

Green Belt land is not sacrosanct. But the National Planning Policy
Framework says "exceptional circumstances" are needed before Green Belt
boundaries are changed and that inappropriate development should be
approved only in “very special circumstances”.

The Levelling-up and Regeneration Bill proposes changes to planning but
on the Green Belt HMG states "we propose to make clear that local
planning authorities are not required to review and alter Green Belt
boundaries if this would be the only way of meeting need in full
(although authorities would still have the ability to review and alter
Green Belt boundaries if they wish, if they can demonstrate that
exceptional circumstances exist)."

Key question is: what makes anyone think it'd be easier to get planning
permission for the transmitter site than for other land in the green
belt thereabouts? It doesn't strike me as much if any more "brownfield"
than a modern farm.

--
Robin
reply-to address is (intended to be) valid

charles

2023-10-04 13:08:03 UTC

I suppose it depends on whether the sites would continue to be used for
other services.
If the sites can be closed then there would be huge savings.

Even better, I think the site at Droitwich could be sold at a massive
profit for housing development.
Does anyone know if Arqiva owns the site outright or occupies it on a
long lease. If the latter, does the BBC retain ownership? It could be
owned by almost anyone, I suppose, these days.

The site was definitely green belt land 10 years ago. Has that changed?

Wasn't there some change in the planning laws recently, that weakened
the status of Green Belts to the point where Councils can now give
planning permission to build on them? ...was it 'fake news' or have I
mis-remembered hearing it?
Certainly, around this area, large housing estates are being built on
land that was generally considered sacrosanct (although I cannot swear
it had Green Belt status).

and round here in Surrey. Elected on a "We will protect the Green Belt"
ticket, they forgot to add "after we've removed lots of it"

--
from KT24 in Surrey, England - sent from my RISC OS 4té²
"I'd rather die of exhaustion than die of boredom" Thomas Carlyle

charles

2023-10-04 10:08:02 UTC

Post by J. P. Gilliver
And many other _administrative_ savings. I was answering the question
of _power_. (OK, the power to run the distribution links enters into
it, but compared to the radiated power, pretty small.)

I suppose it depends on whether the sites would continue to be used for
other services.
If the sites can be closed then there would be huge savings.

I understood that when Castle bought the BBC sites, they thought they were
getting development land. Maybe that dream is coming true.

--
from KT24 in Surrey, England - sent from my RISC OS 4té²
"I'd rather die of exhaustion than die of boredom" Thomas Carlyle

J. P. Gilliver

2023-10-04 23:09:18 UTC

Post by J. P. Gilliver
And many other _administrative_ savings. I was answering the question
of _power_. (OK, the power to run the distribution links enters into
it, but compared to the radiated power, pretty small.)

I suppose it depends on whether the sites would continue to be used for
other services.
If the sites can be closed then there would be huge savings.

Not just the site, but the signal itself, is still used - by the
electricity industry, see the John Williamson post(s).

--
J. P. Gilliver. UMRA: 1960/<1985 MB++G()AL-IS-Ch++(p)***@T+H+Sh0!:`)DNAf

Today, I dare say more people know who starred as /The Vicar of Dibley/ than
know the name of the vicar of their local parish. - Clive Anderson, Radio
Times 15-21 January 2011.

Liz Tuddenham

2023-10-04 10:10:20 UTC

Post by J. P. Gilliver
Tue, 3 Oct 2023 21:47:47, Liz Tuddenham
[]

Yes - and for the reason you explained, that power depends on volatage
squared, so equal increases and decreases in voltage are unequal
increases and decreases in power. I was just taking it one stage
further and saying that if you don't need modulation, you can switch off
the modulator altogether.

Post by J. P. Gilliver

Post by Liz Tuddenham
There will also be a saving in the cost of running the audio links to
the transmitter site.

And many other _administrative_ savings. I was answering the question of
_power_. (OK, the power to run the distribution links enters into it,
but compared to the radiated power, pretty small.)

They are gaining on the financial side, but they are losing the ability
to contact people over a wide area in the event of an emergency which
shuts down the internet. The problem is that the 'they' who save money,
and the 'they' who need to deal with an emergency, aren't the same
people.

In the past, a shutdown of the entire internet was seen as a very remote
possibility, but Russia has shown that it isn't so unlikely after all.

--
~ Liz Tuddenham ~
(Remove the ".invalid"s and add ".co.uk" to reply)
www.poppyrecords.co.uk

Roderick Stewart

2023-10-04 13:02:33 UTC

Post by Liz Tuddenham
They are gaining on the financial side, but they are losing the ability
to contact people over a wide area in the event of an emergency which
shuts down the internet.

They couldn't contact people on long wave anyway if nobody is
listening. How many people have long wave radios now?

Rod.

John Williamson

2023-10-04 13:33:03 UTC

Post by Liz Tuddenham
They are gaining on the financial side, but they are losing the ability
to contact people over a wide area in the event of an emergency which
shuts down the internet.

They couldn't contact people on long wave anyway if nobody is
listening. How many people have long wave radios now?
Rod.

<Holds hand up> Me, sir! (It may well have died of old age, though, as
it's not been turned on in this Century.)

--
Tciao for Now!

John.

MikeS

2023-10-04 13:59:20 UTC

Post by Liz Tuddenham
They are gaining on the financial side, but they are losing the ability
to contact people over a wide area in the event of an emergency which
shuts down the internet.

They couldn't contact people on long wave anyway if nobody is
listening. How many people have long wave radios now?
Rod.

I have several, even the audio in my 2020 car has LW.

Scott

2023-10-04 14:51:19 UTC

Post by MikeS

Post by Liz Tuddenham
They are gaining on the financial side, but they are losing the ability
to contact people over a wide area in the event of an emergency which
shuts down the internet.

They couldn't contact people on long wave anyway if nobody is
listening. How many people have long wave radios now?
Rod.

I have several, even the audio in my 2020 car has LW.

I think the advice is to remain in basement under a table :-)

JMB99

2023-10-04 15:52:38 UTC

They couldn't contact people on long wave anyway if nobody is listening.
How many people have long wave radios now?

Even Medium Wave radios must be getting rarer.

Even if people can find a MW or LW radio, they quite likely would not
know where to listen or the need to peak the signal on a ferrite rod and
probably expect it to work properly indoors.

Mark Carver

2023-10-04 16:21:53 UTC

Post by Roderick Stewart
They couldn't contact people on long wave anyway if nobody is
listening. How many people have long wave radios now?

Even Medium Wave radios must be getting rarer.
Even if people can find a MW or LW radio, they quite likely would not
know where to listen or the need to peak the signal on a ferrite rod and
probably expect it to work properly indoors.

My car had LF and MF removed when the 'ECU' etc received an upgrade at
the first service in 2022.

In another 20 years, I suspect no one will be using a radio of any kind
in the conventional sense.

--
Mark
Please replace invalid and invalid with gmx and net to reply.

Andy Burns

2023-10-04 16:27:03 UTC

Post by Mark Carver
My car had LF and MF removed when the 'ECU' etc received an upgrade at
the first service in 2022.

That's somewhat bizarre, for what reason?

Mark Carver

2023-10-04 16:38:27 UTC

Post by Mark Carver
My car had LF and MF removed when the 'ECU' etc received an upgrade at
the first service in 2022.

That's somewhat bizarre, for what reason?

Well, I'm not 100% sure, but I'd complained that the tyre pressure
warning system was giving erroneous alarms. The main dealer said an
update would cure it, (which it did) but I suspect the upgrade also
elevated the audio/control system to a 2022 version. New 2022 models of
the car (Peg 2008) do not have AM, only FM and DAB (and it looks as if
I've joined the that club too !)

--
Mark
Please replace invalid and invalid with gmx and net to reply.

Scott

2023-10-04 16:52:57 UTC

On Wed, 4 Oct 2023 17:38:27 +0100, Mark Carver

Post by Mark Carver
My car had LF and MF removed when the 'ECU' etc received an upgrade at
the first service in 2022.

That's somewhat bizarre, for what reason?

What about DAB+? Did you have it before and/or after the upgrade?

Mark Carver

2023-10-05 18:42:07 UTC

Post by Scott
On Wed, 4 Oct 2023 17:38:27 +0100, Mark Carver

Post by Mark Carver
My car had LF and MF removed when the 'ECU' etc received an upgrade at
the first service in 2022.

That's somewhat bizarre, for what reason?

What about DAB+? Did you have it before and/or after the upgrade?

Yes, all my cars (I have a lease car, so I've had a few) since 2012 have
had DAB+

--
Mark
Please replace invalid and invalid with gmx and net to reply.

Scott

2023-10-05 18:57:18 UTC

On Thu, 5 Oct 2023 19:42:07 +0100, Mark Carver

Post by Scott
On Wed, 4 Oct 2023 17:38:27 +0100, Mark Carver

Post by Mark Carver
My car had LF and MF removed when the 'ECU' etc received an upgrade at
the first service in 2022.

That's somewhat bizarre, for what reason?

What about DAB+? Did you have it before and/or after the upgrade?

Yes, all my cars (I have a lease car, so I've had a few) since 2012 have
had DAB+

Am I not correct then that there must be very few DAB (no DAB+) radios
in use and therefore little to prevent the BBC switching? Is there any
cost or is it simply a case of resetting the coders?

Robin

2023-10-05 19:11:09 UTC

Post by Scott
On Thu, 5 Oct 2023 19:42:07 +0100, Mark Carver

Post by Scott
On Wed, 4 Oct 2023 17:38:27 +0100, Mark Carver

Post by Mark Carver
My car had LF and MF removed when the 'ECU' etc received an upgrade at
the first service in 2022.

That's somewhat bizarre, for what reason?

What about DAB+? Did you have it before and/or after the upgrade?

Yes, all my cars (I have a lease car, so I've had a few) since 2012 have
had DAB+

Am I not correct then that there must be very few DAB (no DAB+) radios
in use and therefore little to prevent the BBC switching? Is there any
cost or is it simply a case of resetting the coders?

I am unclear how that follows.

Leased cars are usually not exported or crushed but sold into the
second-hand market. 30% of the UK car parc is over 12 years old. So a
fair few of Mark's cars from before 2012 will still be on the road.

And I don't know anyone who leases their portable radios or bedside
radio/alarms.

--
Robin
reply-to address is (intended to be) valid

Scott

2023-10-05 20:58:17 UTC

Post by Scott
On Thu, 5 Oct 2023 19:42:07 +0100, Mark Carver

Post by Scott
On Wed, 4 Oct 2023 17:38:27 +0100, Mark Carver

Post by Mark Carver
My car had LF and MF removed when the 'ECU' etc received an upgrade at
the first service in 2022.

That's somewhat bizarre, for what reason?

What about DAB+? Did you have it before and/or after the upgrade?

Yes, all my cars (I have a lease car, so I've had a few) since 2012 have
had DAB+

Am I not correct then that there must be very few DAB (no DAB+) radios
in use and therefore little to prevent the BBC switching? Is there any
cost or is it simply a case of resetting the coders?

I am unclear how that follows.
Leased cars are usually not exported or crushed but sold into the
second-hand market. 30% of the UK car parc is over 12 years old. So a
fair few of Mark's cars from before 2012 will still be on the road.

How many cars pre-2012 would have DAB? I thought it was slow to take
off for cars.

Post by Robin
And I don't know anyone who leases their portable radios or bedside
radio/alarms.

Not since Rediffusion and Radio Rentals exited this market :-)

Robin

2023-10-05 21:19:23 UTC

Post by Scott
On Thu, 5 Oct 2023 19:42:07 +0100, Mark Carver

Post by Scott
On Wed, 4 Oct 2023 17:38:27 +0100, Mark Carver

Post by Mark Carver
My car had LF and MF removed when the 'ECU' etc received an upgrade at
the first service in 2022.

That's somewhat bizarre, for what reason?

What about DAB+? Did you have it before and/or after the upgrade?

Yes, all my cars (I have a lease car, so I've had a few) since 2012 have
had DAB+

Am I not correct then that there must be very few DAB (no DAB+) radios
in use and therefore little to prevent the BBC switching? Is there any
cost or is it simply a case of resetting the coders?

I am unclear how that follows.
Leased cars are usually not exported or crushed but sold into the
second-hand market. 30% of the UK car parc is over 12 years old. So a
fair few of Mark's cars from before 2012 will still be on the road.

How many cars pre-2012 would have DAB? I thought it was slow to take
off for cars.

Slow from 1995. By 2012 around 25% of all new cars had DAB as standard
according to that year's digital radio action plan.

--
Robin
reply-to address is (intended to be) valid

Scott

2023-10-05 21:32:18 UTC

Post by Scott
On Thu, 5 Oct 2023 19:42:07 +0100, Mark Carver

Post by Scott
On Wed, 4 Oct 2023 17:38:27 +0100, Mark Carver

Post by Mark Carver
My car had LF and MF removed when the 'ECU' etc received an upgrade at
the first service in 2022.

That's somewhat bizarre, for what reason?

What about DAB+? Did you have it before and/or after the upgrade?

Yes, all my cars (I have a lease car, so I've had a few) since 2012 have
had DAB+

Am I not correct then that there must be very few DAB (no DAB+) radios
in use and therefore little to prevent the BBC switching? Is there any
cost or is it simply a case of resetting the coders?

I am unclear how that follows.
Leased cars are usually not exported or crushed but sold into the
second-hand market. 30% of the UK car parc is over 12 years old. So a
fair few of Mark's cars from before 2012 will still be on the road.

How many cars pre-2012 would have DAB? I thought it was slow to take
off for cars.

Slow from 1995. By 2012 around 25% of all new cars had DAB as standard
according to that year's digital radio action plan.

But would some of them not have DAB+ and DMB for the continental
market?

Andy Burns

2023-10-05 21:29:58 UTC

Post by Scott
How many cars pre-2012 would have DAB? I thought it was slow to take
off for cars.

In 2011 (actually 2010 when I ordered it) I had to spec DAB, it wasn't
standard.

Mark Carver

2023-10-05 19:14:07 UTC

Post by Scott
On Thu, 5 Oct 2023 19:42:07 +0100, Mark Carver

Post by Scott
On Wed, 4 Oct 2023 17:38:27 +0100, Mark Carver

Post by Mark Carver
My car had LF and MF removed when the 'ECU' etc received an upgrade at
the first service in 2022.

That's somewhat bizarre, for what reason?

What about DAB+? Did you have it before and/or after the upgrade?

Yes, all my cars (I have a lease car, so I've had a few) since 2012 have
had DAB+

Am I not correct then that there must be very few DAB (no DAB+) radios
in use and therefore little to prevent the BBC switching? Is there any
cost or is it simply a case of resetting the coders?

Read the Ofcom report I posted up thread, according to that a third of
all DAB receivers in use do not support DAB+

--
Mark
Please replace invalid and invalid with gmx and net to reply.

Scott

2023-10-05 20:59:47 UTC

On Thu, 5 Oct 2023 20:14:07 +0100, Mark Carver

Post by Scott
On Thu, 5 Oct 2023 19:42:07 +0100, Mark Carver

Post by Scott
On Wed, 4 Oct 2023 17:38:27 +0100, Mark Carver

Post by Mark Carver
My car had LF and MF removed when the 'ECU' etc received an upgrade at
the first service in 2022.

That's somewhat bizarre, for what reason?

What about DAB+? Did you have it before and/or after the upgrade?

Yes, all my cars (I have a lease car, so I've had a few) since 2012 have
had DAB+

Am I not correct then that there must be very few DAB (no DAB+) radios
in use and therefore little to prevent the BBC switching? Is there any
cost or is it simply a case of resetting the coders?

Read the Ofcom report I posted up thread, according to that a third of
all DAB receivers in use do not support DAB+

Okay, I missed that. Maybe DAB sales are falling because of Internet
delivery.

Clive Page

2023-10-06 22:15:37 UTC

Post by Scott
Am I not correct then that there must be very few DAB (no DAB+) radios
in use and therefore little to prevent the BBC switching? Is there any
cost or is it simply a case of resetting the coders?

Well we have a DAB radio about 16 years old in use every day which doesn't do DAB+. Since it has a record to SD card function that I can't find on any more modern radio, I'd be loth to give it up. There are already quite a few stations that come up on its programme guide that it can't actually receive, but provided the BBC stations stay in DAB non-plus that's ok.

--
Clive Page

Scott

2023-10-04 16:40:40 UTC

On Wed, 4 Oct 2023 17:21:53 +0100, Mark Carver

Post by Roderick Stewart
They couldn't contact people on long wave anyway if nobody is
listening. How many people have long wave radios now?

Even Medium Wave radios must be getting rarer.
Even if people can find a MW or LW radio, they quite likely would not
know where to listen or the need to peak the signal on a ferrite rod and
probably expect it to work properly indoors.

My car had LF and MF removed when the 'ECU' etc received an upgrade at
the first service in 2022.

This supports my earlier (contested) suggestion that DAB+ could in
theory be added by software upgrade.

Post by Mark Carver
In another 20 years, I suspect no one will be using a radio of any kind
in the conventional sense.

How will you listen to the news in the car then? 7G?

Tweed

2023-10-04 16:47:48 UTC

Post by Scott
On Wed, 4 Oct 2023 17:21:53 +0100, Mark Carver

Post by Roderick Stewart
They couldn't contact people on long wave anyway if nobody is
listening. How many people have long wave radios now?

Even Medium Wave radios must be getting rarer.
Even if people can find a MW or LW radio, they quite likely would not
know where to listen or the need to peak the signal on a ferrite rod and
probably expect it to work properly indoors.

My car had LF and MF removed when the 'ECU' etc received an upgrade at
the first service in 2022.

This supports my earlier (contested) suggestion that DAB+ could in
theory be added by software upgrade.

Post by Mark Carver
In another 20 years, I suspect no one will be using a radio of any kind
in the conventional sense.

How will you listen to the news in the car then? 7G?

TCP/IP delivered over the mobile networks.

Mark Carver

2023-10-05 19:19:12 UTC

Post by Scott
On Wed, 4 Oct 2023 17:21:53 +0100, Mark Carver

Post by Roderick Stewart
They couldn't contact people on long wave anyway if nobody is
listening. How many people have long wave radios now?

Even Medium Wave radios must be getting rarer.
Even if people can find a MW or LW radio, they quite likely would not
know where to listen or the need to peak the signal on a ferrite rod and
probably expect it to work properly indoors.

My car had LF and MF removed when the 'ECU' etc received an upgrade at
the first service in 2022.

This supports my earlier (contested) suggestion that DAB+ could in
theory be added by software upgrade.

I'm not sure many of the DAB chipsets are upgradable, (some were,
because there was an upgrade available ISTR)

Even if they are, good luck trying to get the manufacturer of a 20 year
old DAB radio, to write some code, and then pay for the distribution of
the software.

What they will do however, is sell you a nice new DAB+ radio.

--
Mark
Please replace invalid and invalid with gmx and net to reply.

Robin

2023-10-05 19:42:36 UTC

Post by Scott
On Wed, 4 Oct 2023 17:21:53 +0100, Mark Carver

Post by Roderick Stewart
They couldn't contact people on long wave anyway if nobody is
listening. How many people have long wave radios now?

Even Medium Wave radios must be getting rarer.
Even if people can find a MW or LW radio, they quite likely would not
know where to listen or the need to peak the signal on a ferrite rod and
probably expect it to work properly indoors.

My car had LF and MF removed when the 'ECU' etc received an upgrade at
the first service in 2022.

This supports my earlier (contested) suggestion that DAB+ could in
theory be added by software upgrade.

I'm not sure many of the DAB chipsets are upgradable, (some were,
because there was an upgrade available ISTR)
Even if they are, good luck trying to get the manufacturer of a 20 year
old DAB radio, to write some code, and then pay for the distribution of
the software.
What they will do however, is sell you a nice new DAB+ radio.

The "nice" is not guaranteed :(

--
Robin
reply-to address is (intended to be) valid

Scott

2023-10-05 21:01:10 UTC

On Thu, 5 Oct 2023 20:19:12 +0100, Mark Carver

Post by Scott
On Wed, 4 Oct 2023 17:21:53 +0100, Mark Carver

Post by Roderick Stewart
They couldn't contact people on long wave anyway if nobody is
listening. How many people have long wave radios now?

Even Medium Wave radios must be getting rarer.
Even if people can find a MW or LW radio, they quite likely would not
know where to listen or the need to peak the signal on a ferrite rod and
probably expect it to work properly indoors.

My car had LF and MF removed when the 'ECU' etc received an upgrade at
the first service in 2022.

This supports my earlier (contested) suggestion that DAB+ could in
theory be added by software upgrade.

I'm not sure many of the DAB chipsets are upgradable, (some were,
because there was an upgrade available ISTR)
Even if they are, good luck trying to get the manufacturer of a 20 year
old DAB radio, to write some code, and then pay for the distribution of
the software.
What they will do however, is sell you a nice new DAB+ radio.

As I pointed out, some of the Pure radios could be upgraded by
software. I think it cost AUD 10.

JMB99

2023-10-05 21:28:44 UTC

As I pointed out, some of the Pure radios could be upgraded by software.
I think it cost AUD 10.

I upgraded my old PURE radios many years ago, I think they eventually
dropped the charge but not sure - it must be getting on for 10 years ago.

Brian Gregory

2023-10-05 21:48:50 UTC

Post by Scott
As I pointed out, some of the Pure radios could be upgraded by
software. I think it cost AUD 10.

Australian dollars??

--
Brian Gregory (in England).

Scott

2023-10-06 18:36:56 UTC

On Thu, 5 Oct 2023 22:48:50 +0100, Brian Gregory

Post by Brian Gregory

Post by Scott
As I pointed out, some of the Pure radios could be upgraded by
software. I think it cost AUD 10.

Australian dollars??

Yes, I saw it at the time Australia was moving to DAB+.

JMB99

2023-10-04 18:10:36 UTC

Post by Mark Carver
In another 20 years, I suspect no one will be using a radio of any kind
in the conventional sense.

Would be interesting to compare with some of Tomorrow's World's
forecasts in the past.

Clive Page

2023-10-05 09:19:48 UTC

Post by Liz Tuddenham
They are gaining on the financial side, but they are losing the ability
to contact people over a wide area in the event of an emergency which
shuts down the internet.

They couldn't contact people on long wave anyway if nobody is
listening. How many people have long wave radios now?

Well we have a couple of radios capable of getting Long Wave, but of course not used on LW for some time, just the FM band. But there's no reason to assume it isn't still working, and battery radios so could be handy in an emergency.

--
Clive Page

Brian Gregory

2023-10-05 21:43:07 UTC

Ever seen an AM signal on a spectrum analyser?

As the modulation varies in strength the strength of the sidebands
increases and decreases with the loudness of the modulation while the
strength of the carrier stays constant.

Not having to radiate any sidebands would save power.

--
Brian Gregory (in England).

JMB99

2023-10-05 21:46:53 UTC

Post by Brian Gregory
Not having to radiate any sidebands would save power.

Rather defeats the object of broadcasting if you do not transmit any
modulation?

J. P. Gilliver

2023-10-06 02:52:13 UTC

Post by Brian Gregory
Not having to radiate any sidebands would save power.

I'd said that.

Post by JMB99
Rather defeats the object of broadcasting if you do not transmit any
modulation?

The signal is also phase (or frequency) modulated - that modulation is
not audible to anyone using an ordinary envelope detector to listen to
the a.m. audio. That is used by the electricity industry to control lots
of things - such as switching people who have dual-tariff contracts. The
French used similar to send a time signal; again, normal listeners
weren't aware of that, but if you listened with a set with a b.f.o.,
which would normally give a tone for a normal a.m. signal, you'd hear
the frequency of the tone blip every second (with further coding). They
turned off the a.m. a few years ago, but are still broadcasting the
carrier with the f.m. on it; the suggestion is that 198 kHz might remain
on with no a.m., but with p.m., paid for by the electricity industry
(who presumably pay _something_ already).

--
J. P. Gilliver. UMRA: 1960/<1985 MB++G()AL-IS-Ch++(p)***@T+H+Sh0!:`)DNAf

I can prove anything with statistics - except the truth.

Mark Carver

2023-10-06 07:44:08 UTC

Post by Brian Gregory
Not having to radiate any sidebands would save power.

Rather defeats the object of broadcasting if you do not transmit any
modulation?

Try reading the _whole_ of this thread

--
Mark
Please replace invalid and invalid with gmx and net to reply.

Liz Tuddenham

2023-10-06 08:32:38 UTC