Medium wave

[Brian Gaff]

Is it not time we used this underused part of the spectrum for digital stuff
like they suggested some years ago. I know radios were made for this as I
found one abroad back when I could see. OK, so it was mono, but far better
at removing interference than AM analogue is and now we are closing the
stations seems a got time to exploit it again. Obviously fading could be an
issue, but most medium wave outlets were meant to be for local consumption,
and restricted bandwidth.
DRM anyone?
Brian

[JMB99]

Post by Brian Gaff
Is it not time we used this underused part of the spectrum for digital stuff
like they suggested some years ago.

Why not invest any savings from MW, LW and VHF FM close down in
completing DAB coverage. There are lots of receivers out there for DAB.

Who is going to want to invest in building DRM sites where there are
very few receivers and available and none in most cars.

How many years would it be before there was DRM coverage everywhere.

[Brian Gaff]

I was thinking of an on the cheap community station that Offcom does not
charge an arm and a leg for, or are we now going over to mobile broadband
supplied radio, which in effect is not free as you have to pay for the
connection. Brian
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Post by Brian Gaff
Is it not time we used this underused part of the spectrum for digital stuff
like they suggested some years ago.

Why not invest any savings from MW, LW and VHF FM close down in completing
DAB coverage. There are lots of receivers out there for DAB.
Who is going to want to invest in building DRM sites where there are very
few receivers and available and none in most cars.
How many years would it be before there was DRM coverage everywhere.

[J. P. Gilliver]

Post by Brian Gaff
I was thinking of an on the cheap community station that Offcom does not
charge an arm and a leg for, or are we now going over to mobile broadband
supplied radio, which in effect is not free as you have to pay for the
connection. Brian

The assumption is that everybody has, everywhere, an always-on
connection. I find it an infuriating assumption, but that's not going to
stop them assuming it; I can't think of anything that will - even a few
high-profile anti-discrimination cases won't, they'll probably if
anything have the opposite effect (of removing the requirement not to so
discriminate).

[Tweed]

Post by J. P. Gilliver

Post by Brian Gaff
I was thinking of an on the cheap community station that Offcom does not
charge an arm and a leg for, or are we now going over to mobile broadband
supplied radio, which in effect is not free as you have to pay for the
connection. Brian

The assumption is that everybody has, everywhere, an always-on
connection. I find it an infuriating assumption, but that's not going to
stop them assuming it; I can't think of anything that will - even a few
high-profile anti-discrimination cases won't, they'll probably if
anything have the opposite effect (of removing the requirement not to so
discriminate).

Medium Wave is not the answer to any of these alleged issues though.

[Mark Carver]

Post by Brian Gaff
Is it not time we used this underused part of the spectrum for digital stuff
like they suggested some years ago. I know radios were made for this as I
found one abroad back when I could see. OK, so it was mono, but far better
at removing interference than AM analogue is and now we are closing the
stations seems a got time to exploit it again. Obviously fading could be an
issue, but most medium wave outlets were meant to be for local consumption,

The MF band is no use to anyone now. Only 1 MHz of spectrum, no one is
going to bother with any broadcast system, and what other use can you
think of ?

[Roderick Stewart]

Post by Mark Carver

Post by Brian Gaff
Is it not time we used this underused part of the spectrum for digital stuff
like they suggested some years ago. I know radios were made for this as I
found one abroad back when I could see. OK, so it was mono, but far better
at removing interference than AM analogue is and now we are closing the
stations seems a got time to exploit it again. Obviously fading could be an
issue, but most medium wave outlets were meant to be for local consumption,

The MF band is no use to anyone now. Only 1 MHz of spectrum, no one is
going to bother with any broadcast system, and what other use can you
think of ?

It would be a lost learning opportunity if they closed it down. I
remember when it was possible to make a radio receiver with nothing
more than three components and a lot of wire, and apart from that
you'd only need a high impedance earphone to listen to it. It was
doing this that took away the mystery of it and made me realise that
if I could make things myself that really worked, maybe radio and
electronics could actually be within my understanding, so maybe it
would be worth reading more about it. It's difficult to exaggerate the
amount of encouragement a simple thing like this can give.

Nowadays you need to be fairly well educated already before you can
hope to understand anything, and most ordinary household technology is
beyond anybody's hope of being able to make one themselves without
fairly complicated subassemblies that someone else has already
created. I wonder how anybody learns about this stuff today?

Rod.

[JMB99]

Post by Roderick Stewart
It would be a lost learning opportunity if they closed it down.

Nice clear MW and LW bands for someone to build a small transmitter and
receive on a crystal set.

[Brian Gaff]

Trouble is all you would hear these days is all the man made crap that comes
out of badly designed swithmode supplies and chargers, not to mention led
lamps and solar panel inverters.

You could actually make a crystal set from a bit of coal if it had the right
bits in it. A bit broad band, but often if you used a germanium transistor
and rectified the voltages in the aerial, it would work better as there was
a tiny amount of amplification around. I built loads of stuff like that when
I was young. Brian
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Post by JMB99

Post by Roderick Stewart
It would be a lost learning opportunity if they closed it down.

Nice clear MW and LW bands for someone to build a small transmitter and
receive on a crystal set.

[Brian Gaff]

Just like computer programming, they just don't learn about it. The old ZX81
could be assembled from a kit and came with a manual that allowed you to get
into the concepts of programming on your own. I learned a lot from that, and
also the Spectrum that followed it. It all went wrong when a simple to
understand programming language was not shipped with all computers. Basic
dialects could relatively easily be converted between machines if you knew a
bit about graphic resolution and colour manipulation that was possible. Then
companies made compilers for these and the program was much faster. They
had good sensible error messages and often flagged up upon text entry, where
the problem was.
With all the power in computers now, surely some very simple basic like
language could be shipped with all machines.
Brian
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Post by Roderick Stewart

Post by Mark Carver

Post by Brian Gaff
Is it not time we used this underused part of the spectrum for digital stuff
like they suggested some years ago. I know radios were made for this as I
found one abroad back when I could see. OK, so it was mono, but far better
at removing interference than AM analogue is and now we are closing the
stations seems a got time to exploit it again. Obviously fading could be an
issue, but most medium wave outlets were meant to be for local consumption,

The MF band is no use to anyone now. Only 1 MHz of spectrum, no one is
going to bother with any broadcast system, and what other use can you
think of ?

It would be a lost learning opportunity if they closed it down. I
remember when it was possible to make a radio receiver with nothing
more than three components and a lot of wire, and apart from that
you'd only need a high impedance earphone to listen to it. It was
doing this that took away the mystery of it and made me realise that
if I could make things myself that really worked, maybe radio and
electronics could actually be within my understanding, so maybe it
would be worth reading more about it. It's difficult to exaggerate the
amount of encouragement a simple thing like this can give.
Nowadays you need to be fairly well educated already before you can
hope to understand anything, and most ordinary household technology is
beyond anybody's hope of being able to make one themselves without
fairly complicated subassemblies that someone else has already
created. I wonder how anybody learns about this stuff today?
Rod.

[Tweed]

Post by Brian Gaff
Just like computer programming, they just don't learn about it. The old ZX81
could be assembled from a kit and came with a manual that allowed you to get
into the concepts of programming on your own. I learned a lot from that, and
also the Spectrum that followed it. It all went wrong when a simple to
understand programming language was not shipped with all computers. Basic
dialects could relatively easily be converted between machines if you knew a
bit about graphic resolution and colour manipulation that was possible. Then
companies made compilers for these and the program was much faster. They
had good sensible error messages and often flagged up upon text entry, where
the problem was.
With all the power in computers now, surely some very simple basic like
language could be shipped with all machines.
Brian

The modern version of this is the Raspberry Pi and its little offshoot the
Pi Pico. Both can be programmed in Python, which is an easy to use
interpreted language. There’s a whole world of add on boards to teach
electronics and a vast amount of beginner’s material, both on the web and
in printed book form. If compilers are your thing there’s any number of
languages available, all free of charge.

For those wanting to play radio it’s possible to use Software Defined
Radios

[Brian Gaff]

Other uses? Well part of it used to be used for analogue portable phones.

What about some kind of messaging system for large places, so the displays
of mostly text does not need any data connection, a bit like a proposal from
some years ago like a teletext system for large venues.
What about a lot of small weather stations in an area for example? I'm
sure there are many low bit rate digital uses. You could get a few FM
stations into the space of course.
Brian
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Post by Mark Carver

Post by Brian Gaff
Is it not time we used this underused part of the spectrum for digital stuff
like they suggested some years ago. I know radios were made for this as I
found one abroad back when I could see. OK, so it was mono, but far better
at removing interference than AM analogue is and now we are closing the
stations seems a got time to exploit it again. Obviously fading could be an
issue, but most medium wave outlets were meant to be for local consumption,

The MF band is no use to anyone now. Only 1 MHz of spectrum, no one is
going to bother with any broadcast system, and what other use can you
think of ?

[JMB99]

Post by Brian Gaff
Other uses? Well part of it used to be used for analogue portable phones.

Are they still used?

You used to hear some very "interesting" things from them. :-)

[Brian Gaff]

No most of them have died by now. They used vhf for the handset to the base
unit, and just the top end of medium wave for the other way. This worked
fine until we all got naff wall warts that put a hash all over the band.
Yes, you could clearly hear card numbers and security codes and the guy
chatting up multiple girls on the phone and even some lomewhat rude
conversations, whereas now of course you get foldk doing it walking down the
road as if they were at home. No I don't want to here how his wife does not
understand him like the caller does, or indeed on how many pints he had the
night before.
Brian
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Post by JMB99

Post by Brian Gaff
Other uses? Well part of it used to be used for analogue portable phones.

Are they still used?
You used to hear some very "interesting" things from them. :-)

[J. P. Gilliver]

Post by Brian Gaff
No most of them have died by now. They used vhf for the handset to the base
unit, and just the top end of medium wave for the other way. This worked

[]
If you mean analogue fobile moans, I don't think it's that they've died,
but that the base stations they worked with - by modern parlance maybe
that'd be G1, or even G0 perhaps? - were I think turned off many years
ago. The 'phones probably _would_ have died too, if only the batteries -
I think we're talking long ago enough that a fair number of them were
NiCd batteries, which (on the whole) don't last well.

[Brian Gaff]

No I men the old analogue walk about phones. They simply used 49Mhz and just
at the high frequency end ofmedium wave. They had no protection against
eavesdroppers as they used narrow band FM.
I do also admit in its day, owning a Rabbit system With my base station up
high in the building I found in places I could get a mile out of them. The
idea was also that you had rbbit phone points around the place and you could
also communicate via those. For what it was, it worked for many years as a
cordless digital mobile. I don't know what protocols it used but the
frequencies were high. After a while phone got shut down of course as nobody
wanted to pay a connection rate to the company which ran them.

T
Are there any mobiles around now which can be used the house on a landline
and as a mobile?
Brian
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Post by J. P. Gilliver

Post by Brian Gaff
No most of them have died by now. They used vhf for the handset to the base
unit, and just the top end of medium wave for the other way. This worked

[]
If you mean analogue fobile moans, I don't think it's that they've died,
but that the base stations they worked with - by modern parlance maybe
that'd be G1, or even G0 perhaps? - were I think turned off many years
ago. The 'phones probably _would_ have died too, if only the batteries - I
think we're talking long ago enough that a fair number of them were NiCd
batteries, which (on the whole) don't last well.
--
Once a mind is opened it is very hard to shut.

[charles]

Post by Brian Gaff
No I men the old analogue walk about phones. They simply used 49Mhz and
just at the high frequency end ofmedium wave. They had no protection
against eavesdroppers as they used narrow band FM. I do also admit in its
day, owning a Rabbit system With my base station up high in the
building I found in places I could get a mile out of them. The idea was
also that you had rbbit phone points around the place and you could also
communicate via those. For what it was, it worked for many years as a
cordless digital mobile. I don't know what protocols it used but the
frequencies were high. After a while phone got shut down of course as
nobody wanted to pay a connection rate to the company which ran them.
T Are there any mobiles around now which can be used the house on a
landline and as a mobile? Brian

With landlines about to vanish this is not a concern. I am told that when I
move to VOIP, an app will allow me to pick up VOIP calls on my mobile.
Problem solved.

[John Williamson]

Post by charles
With landlines about to vanish this is not a concern. I am told that when I
move to VOIP, an app will allow me to pick up VOIP calls on my mobile.
Problem solved.

The app can already be installed on your mobile if you set up a VOIP
account on your broadband and have a router with a Wifi connection.

Landlines are not going to disappear. They will, though, no longer be
analogue with a digital overlay, but will be digital with an analogue
converter in the router.

If you do not have broadband via landline, you will get a router with a
converter installed, and you will plug your existing phone into the
router, and will carry on as before. You nay need to update your burglar
alarm and any personal alarm buttons you use to call help after a fall
or medical emergemcy.

If you have broadband and a modern alarm system, the only change you
will probably notice is that you need to plug your phone into the
router, not the socket on the wall.

It will be a good idea to install a standby or uninterruptable power
supply for the router.

If, like many people, you use only cell based comms, (Now cheaper than
landline and which are not locked to any particular location) you will
wonder what all the fuss is about.

[J. P. Gilliver]

Post by John Williamson

Post by charles
With landlines about to vanish this is not a concern. I am told that when I
move to VOIP, an app will allow me to pick up VOIP calls on my mobile.
Problem solved.

The app can already be installed on your mobile if you set up a VOIP
account on your broadband and have a router with a Wifi connection.

The VoIP account doesn't have to be with the same provider as your
broadband. (In the case of PlusNet, they're still saying they're not
offering it - they'll move you to BT, though [part of the same company,
though most of the time they operate separately] if you want.)

Post by John Williamson
Landlines are not going to disappear. They will, though, no longer be
analogue with a digital overlay, but will be digital with an analogue
converter in the router.

Assuming your broadband supplier (or you) supply a router with such a
converter built in. If not, you can get external converters that go
between your old 'phone and the router (some of them even support pulse
dialling!). Or, you can get a dedicated VoIP 'phone.

Post by John Williamson
If you do not have broadband via landline, you will get a router with a
converter installed, and you will plug your existing phone into the
router, and will carry on as before. You nay need to update your

PlusNet's "Hub 2" router has a (BT type!) socket on it, under a sticker
saying Digital Voice Customers Only; looks like they're not going to
enable it though, which seems silly to me!

Post by John Williamson
burglar alarm and any personal alarm buttons you use to call help after
a fall or medical emergemcy.
If you have broadband and a modern alarm system, the only change you
will probably notice is that you need to plug your phone into the
router, not the socket on the wall.

I think plugging the master plug from your extension wiring into the
router (via a converter if necessary) should make all your old kit work
via the new system, though it may be inconvenient if your router is not
currently near your master socket.

Post by John Williamson
It will be a good idea to install a standby or uninterruptable power
supply for the router.

For the amount of power the average router uses, a UPS of the sort that
provides mains would be overkill, though all that is available at the
moment; those with sufficient technical skill should be able to rig up
something with rechargeable cells (which after all is all that's in a
UPS, other than mains-to-DC and DC-to-mains converters).

Post by John Williamson
If, like many people, you use only cell based comms, (Now cheaper than
landline and which are not locked to any particular location) you will
wonder what all the fuss is about.

Only cheaper than landline, for some people, if they pay a monthly
mobile fee anyway. I have anytime landline calls with my broadband and
am _not_ paying extra; however, may be because I'm a long-time customer.

[John Williamson]

Post by J. P. Gilliver

Post by John Williamson
If, like many people, you use only cell based comms, (Now cheaper than
landline and which are not locked to any particular location) you will
wonder what all the fuss is about.

Only cheaper than landline, for some people, if they pay a monthly
mobile fee anyway. I have anytime landline calls with my broadband and
am _not_ paying extra; however, may be because I'm a long-time customer.

I have unlimited calls, text and broadband on my pay monthly cell
connection, and it costs me about half the price that an equivalent
landline package would.

If your cell is costing you more per month than a landline, then as most
pay as you use it packages require a minimum top up every month anyway,
you may as well go for the unlimited contract option.

[J. P. Gilliver]

Post by John Williamson

Post by J. P. Gilliver

Post by John Williamson
If, like many people, you use only cell based comms, (Now cheaper than
landline and which are not locked to any particular location) you will
wonder what all the fuss is about.

Only cheaper than landline, for some people, if they pay a monthly
mobile fee anyway. I have anytime landline calls with my broadband and
am _not_ paying extra; however, may be because I'm a long-time customer.

I have unlimited calls, text and broadband on my pay monthly cell
connection, and it costs me about half the price that an equivalent
landline package would.

Interesting! Who are you with? Do you find broadband-via-mobile is
adequate technically (speed, reliability, other)? How much _do_ you pay?
(Obviously feel free not to answer that - or any of this of course!)

Post by John Williamson
If your cell is costing you more per month than a landline, then as
most pay as you use it packages require a minimum top up every month
anyway, you may as well go for the unlimited contract option.

Indeed; it hearkens back to the old dial-up days, when the knowledge
that every minute was costing you inhibited use. You say "than a
landline" - I don't consider that I pay separately for my landline, just
all as part of my broadband; last real haggle on that was switching from
evening-and-weekend-calls-free to anytime calls, in return for a halving
of broadband speed, which was fine by me and I don't notice it: I'm the
only user in this household and don't download HD movies, and normally
am unaware of any broadband speed limit. YMMV, especially if you're a
multi-user household.

[John Williamson]

Post by J. P. Gilliver

Post by John Williamson
I have unlimited calls, text and broadband on my pay monthly cell
connection, and it costs me about half the price that an equivalent
landline package would.

Interesting! Who are you with? Do you find broadband-via-mobile is
adequate technically (speed, reliability, other)? How much _do_ you pay?
(Obviously feel free not to answer that - or any of this of course!)

I have SIM my accounts with EE and Vodafone at about thirty quid a month
each. Netter deals are probably available, but ICBA looking. The phine
cost me £160, and the router cost me £30. If I were willing to put up
with losing the internet on one account while talking on the other, it
takes two SIMs. It happily carries on working if I use the BB account on
the SIM I'm talking via.

Last time I asked the question, a landline was about £55.

For the majority of the time I can stream 2K definition video on either
accounts. Occasionally, one of them drops out.

Post by J. P. Gilliver

Post by John Williamson
If your cell is costing you more per month than a landline, then as
most pay as you use it packages require a minimum top up every month
anyway, you may as well go for the unlimited contract option.

Indeed; it hearkens back to the old dial-up days, when the knowledge
that every minute was costing you inhibited use. You say "than a
landline" - I don't consider that I pay separately for my landline, just
all as part of my broadband;

I remember maxing out my 20GB landline data allowance on the dim and
distant past. I also remember uploading and downloading stuff via 2G
cellphone at 9600 baud, and paying by the minute.

[Andy Burns]

Post by John Williamson
Last time I asked the question, a landline was about £55.

Plusnet currently costs me £26.20/m for line rental, off-peak calls and
80/20Mb broadband (from next month, the CPI+3.9% wi

[J. P. Gilliver]

Post by Andy Burns

Post by John Williamson
Last time I asked the question, a landline was about £55.

Plusnet currently costs me £26.20/m for line rental, off-peak calls and
80/20Mb broadband (from next month, the CPI+3.9% will see it rise to
£28.37)

I too am paying PlusNet twentysomething - "line rental" (I'll certainly
be glad to see _that_ term consigned to history!), anytime calls, and (I
think) 30/10 broadband; as you say, the CPI+3.9 cuts in at the end of
this month.

(Where did the 3.9% come from? It seems to be used by most providers.
[And one - fortunately not PlusNet - provider uses RPI not CPI.])

The cost of a _new_ landline, if you don't have one, I _think_ is in
three figures, but that's one-off. After end of POTS, I don't know what
will happen there: presumably there'll still be an installation cost for
new users, though presumably fibre. (As, presumably, is happening for
new builds, such as estates.)

[Tweed]

Post by J. P. Gilliver

Post by Andy Burns

Post by John Williamson
Last time I asked the question, a landline was about £55.

Plusnet currently costs me £26.20/m for line rental, off-peak calls and
80/20Mb broadband (from next month, the CPI+3.9% will see it rise to
£28.37)

I too am paying PlusNet twentysomething - "line rental" (I'll certainly
be glad to see _that_ term consigned to history!), anytime calls, and (I
think) 30/10 broadband; as you say, the CPI+3.9 cuts in at the end of
this month.
(Where did the 3.9% come from? It seems to be used by most providers.
[And one - fortunately not PlusNet - provider uses RPI not CPI.])
The cost of a _new_ landline, if you don't have one, I _think_ is in
three figures, but that's one-off. After end of POTS, I don't know what
will happen there: presumably there'll still be an installation cost for
new users, though presumably fibre. (As, presumably, is happening for
new builds, such as estates.)

As to installation costs, that will depend on local competition. My
recently installed CityFibre based optical fibre had a zero installation
fee.

[Andy Burns]

Post by J. P. Gilliver
Where did the 3.9% come from?

I started-off assuming +3.9% was the max allowed by OFCOM, but it
appears OFCOM also wondered where it comes from ... their conclusion
just seems to be that a pounds+pence increase must be quoted rather than
a formula ...

[J. P. Gilliver]

Post by Andy Burns

Post by J. P. Gilliver
Where did the 3.9% come from?

I started-off assuming +3.9% was the max allowed by OFCOM, but it
appears OFCOM also wondered where it comes from ... their conclusion
just seems to be that a pounds+pence increase must be quoted rather
than a formula ...

I think PlusNet _have_ always told me in pounds and pence, but cited the
CPI+3.9% as the _reason_ - and they added _that_ to the contract terms,
I think about three or four years ago. I'm glad to hear OFCom are also
puzzled by where it comes from - but not surprised they haven't pursued
the matter: OFCom, like most of the OFs, mostly do _not_ operate in the
_customer's_ interests, but the industry's.

[John Williamson]

Post by J. P. Gilliver

Post by Andy Burns

Post by John Williamson
Last time I asked the question, a landline was about £55.

Plusnet currently costs me £26.20/m for line rental, off-peak calls
and 80/20Mb broadband (from next month, the CPI+3.9% will see it rise
to £28.37)

It seems I am out of date, then, but as I am not able to make use of a
fixed connection point, it's not that important to me. Plusnet isn't all
that far off what I am paying, it seems.

Post by J. P. Gilliver
I too am paying PlusNet twentysomething - "line rental" (I'll certainly
be glad to see _that_ term consigned to history!), anytime calls, and (I
think) 30/10 broadband; as you say, the CPI+3.9 cuts in at the end of
this month.

There will still be a monthly fee for the service, no matter what they
call it. There has to be a connection to your premises as well as other
stuff going on, all of which which costs money to maintain. Switching to
VOIP will make it easier for them to alter the cost of use as well as
connection quality on a packet by packet basis if needed as a load
balancing measure.

All that going over to VOIP will change is that there will be one less
conversion from digital to analogue and vice versa in the exchange. That
conversion will, instead, be done at your end of the "last mile". What
happens now is that your analogue signals get converted to digital in
the exchange and squirted along their internal VOIP networks, then
reconverted to squirt the analogue down your POTS wires, which currently
also carry the broadband signal as modulated HF signals. It has been a
long time since exchanges were full of clattering rotary switches and
relays. In most villages, the exchange is under a manhole cover outside
the old exchange which is now someone's home, and the operator is as
likely as not to be working from home in Dundee or somewhere.

[J. P. Gilliver]

[]

Post by John Williamson

Post by J. P. Gilliver
I too am paying PlusNet twentysomething - "line rental" (I'll certainly
be glad to see _that_ term consigned to history!), anytime calls, and (I

[]

Post by John Williamson
There will still be a monthly fee for the service, no matter what they
call it. There has to be a connection to your premises as well as other

Yes, but I pay a monthly fee for my broadband. Now that that's fixed
(and has been for some years) rather than usage-based, any reference to
"line rental" is just plain irritating.

Post by John Williamson
stuff going on, all of which which costs money to maintain. Switching
to VOIP will make it easier for them to alter the cost of use as well
as connection quality on a packet by packet basis if needed as a load
balancing measure.

Though - unless they invoke traffic shaping, which I would hope even
OFCom would take a dim view of if used against third party companies -
they (the broadband provider) won't be able to affect those using a
third party VoIP provider (which PlusNet customers at present it appears
will have to).

Post by John Williamson
All that going over to VOIP will change is that there will be one less
conversion from digital to analogue and vice versa in the exchange.
That conversion will, instead, be done at your end of the "last mile".
What happens now is that your analogue signals get converted to digital
in the exchange and squirted along their internal VOIP networks, then
reconverted to squirt the analogue down your POTS wires, which
currently also carry the broadband signal as modulated HF signals. It

Which (the modulated HF) will of course continue for many customers,
just the AF (and DC signalling) will cease.

Post by John Williamson
has been a long time since exchanges were full of clattering rotary
switches and relays. In most villages, the exchange is under a manhole
cover outside the old exchange which is now someone's home, and the
operator is as likely as not to be working from home in Dundee or
somewhere.

I was surprised to find that in my village (small town? 2,766 in 2011,
so probably still a village), it's actually a substantial building; I'd
been expecting a cabinet. Operator! Now there's a quaint concept; I
don't think I've dialled - 100 is it? - for decades!

[J. P. Gilliver]

Post by John Williamson

Post by J. P. Gilliver

Post by John Williamson
I have unlimited calls, text and broadband on my pay monthly cell
connection, and it costs me about half the price that an equivalent
landline package would.

Interesting! Who are you with? Do you find broadband-via-mobile is
adequate technically (speed, reliability, other)? How much _do_ you pay?
(Obviously feel free not to answer that - or any of this of course!)

I have SIM my accounts with EE and Vodafone at about thirty quid a
month each. Netter deals are probably available, but ICBA looking. The
phine cost me £160, and the router cost me £30. If I were willing to
put up with losing the internet on one account while talking on the
other, it takes two SIMs. It happily carries on working if I use the BB
account on the SIM I'm talking via.

I've not noticed any degradation of my landline-based broadband when I'm
using the 'phone.

Post by John Williamson
Last time I asked the question, a landline was about £55.

For monthly cost, see Andy's post and my reply.

Post by John Williamson
For the majority of the time I can stream 2K definition video on either
accounts. Occasionally, one of them drops out.

So to get _reliable_ BB, you're paying about 2 × 30 = 60 quid a month.

Post by John Williamson

Post by J. P. Gilliver

Post by John Williamson
If your cell is costing you more per month than a landline, then as
most pay as you use it packages require a minimum top up every month
anyway, you may as well go for the unlimited contract option.

Indeed; it hearkens back to the old dial-up days, when the knowledge
that every minute was costing you inhibited use. You say "than a
landline" - I don't consider that I pay separately for my landline, just
all as part of my broadband;

I remember maxing out my 20GB landline data allowance on the dim and
distant past. I also remember uploading and downloading stuff via 2G
cellphone at 9600 baud, and paying by the minute.

I don't think most landline-based broadband has an allowance these days
- well, I'm sure they do (hidden under "fair usage", a weasel term I
don't think the industry should be allowed), but high enough most people
never hit it. Do mobile-based BB contracts have a limit?

[Roderick Stewart]

Post by J. P. Gilliver
I think plugging the master plug from your extension wiring into the
router (via a converter if necessary) should make all your old kit work
via the new system, though it may be inconvenient if your router is not
currently near your master socket.

It will work, and even if the router is not conveniently near where
you would really like your phone to be, just move the base station of
the phone next to the router anyway and buy another extension handset.

Or you might be able to obtain just another charging stand (from
Ebay?) for the handset you already have in the base station, so that
you can continue to use it somewhere else. You'll then have a base
station with no handset next to the router, and the same number of
handsets around the house that you had previously, at very little
extra expense.

Rod.

[Max Demian]

Post by J. P. Gilliver

Post by John Williamson

Post by charles
With landlines about to vanish this is not a concern. I am told that when I
move to VOIP, an app will allow me to pick up VOIP calls on my mobile.
Problem solved.

The app can already be installed on your mobile if you set up a VOIP
account on your broadband and have a router with a Wifi connection.

The VoIP account doesn't have to be with the same provider as your
broadband. (In the case of PlusNet, they're still saying they're not
offering it - they'll move you to BT, though [part of the same company,
though most of the time they operate separately] if you want.)

I currently have my landline from BT and Internet (ADSL2+) from PlusNet.
Does anyone know how they will deal with the change to digital phone?
Like, who will provide the new router and will it have a socket for an
analogue phone? Will I be "encouraged" to switch to fibre of some
flavour, and will this be FTTC, FTTN or what? ATM the (copper) phone
connections are embedded in the walls of the block of flats I live in,
so FTTP would not be very nice, as in wires laid on the ground and holes
drilled in walls. (A neighbour in the same block has a CityFibre
connection done in this way.)

I know that BT own PlusNet but I still want to keep PlusNet as my ISP.

[Roderick Stewart]

Post by Max Demian
I currently have my landline from BT and Internet (ADSL2+) from PlusNet.
Does anyone know how they will deal with the change to digital phone?
Like, who will provide the new router and will it have a socket for an
analogue phone?

I don't think they will. Currently Plusnet don't seem to offer a VOIP
service of their own, so if you stay with Plusnet and upgrade to fibre
you would have to subscribe to a VOIP service from somebody else, and
probably have to obtain extra equipment to use it.

If your landline phone is vital to you, the simplest way would seem to
be to change both internet and landline to another service provider
that *does* offer a VOIP service, then upgrade to fibre. It's not the
only way, but it seems simplest to get all your communication services
from the same company.

BT and Zen are just two companies I happen to know about that offer
both internet and VOIP phone. There are probably others, but don't
assume that they all do.

Rod.

[charles]

Post by Roderick Stewart

Post by Max Demian
I currently have my landline from BT and Internet (ADSL2+) from PlusNet.
Does anyone know how they will deal with the change to digital phone?
Like, who will provide the new router and will it have a socket for an
analogue phone?

I don't think they will. Currently Plusnet don't seem to offer a VOIP
service of their own, so if you stay with Plusnet and upgrade to fibre
you would have to subscribe to a VOIP service from somebody else, and
probably have to obtain extra equipment to use it.
If your landline phone is vital to you, the simplest way would seem to
be to change both internet and landline to another service provider
that *does* offer a VOIP service, then upgrade to fibre. It's not the
only way, but it seems simplest to get all your communication services
from the same company.
BT and Zen are just two companies I happen to know about that offer
both internet and VOIP phone. There are probably others, but don't
assume that they all do.

I use Orpheus Internet for Fibre (used to be ADSL2) and will be moving to
VOIP from them shortly.

[J. P. Gilliver]

Post by Roderick Stewart

Post by Max Demian
I currently have my landline from BT and Internet (ADSL2+) from PlusNet.
Does anyone know how they will deal with the change to digital phone?
Like, who will provide the new router and will it have a socket for an
analogue phone?

I don't think they will. Currently Plusnet don't seem to offer a VOIP
service of their own, so if you stay with Plusnet and upgrade to fibre
you would have to subscribe to a VOIP service from somebody else, and
probably have to obtain extra equipment to use it.

PlusNet's "hub 2" router has a (BT style!) socket, under a sticker
labelled Digital Phone Customers Only. The latest knowledge anyone has,
however, is that PlusNet - as such - _aren't_ going to be offering VoIP,
though I'm hoping they're going to change their mind. If they don't, I
don't know if the electronics behind that socket (if any!) can be
enabled.

When I mentioned the subject in passing when talking to them about
something else, they said they'd put me onto their "partner company" or
some such phrase, BT. Whether that means transfer of whole thing -
broadband and VoIP - or just the VoIP part, I didn't pursue at that
point.

Post by Roderick Stewart
If your landline phone is vital to you, the simplest way would seem to
be to change both internet and landline to another service provider
that *does* offer a VOIP service, then upgrade to fibre. It's not the
only way, but it seems simplest to get all your communication services
from the same company.

Has advantages and disadvantages. Probably little or no _technical_
advantage to going separate, as if broadband fails, VoIP will anyway;
there may or may not be financial advantage. If separate, the VoIP
company will almost certainly have a monthly charge - but I suspect the
broadband company will add one for providing VoIP as well; it's then
down to how much those monthly charges are, how many free minutes (or
can you have anytime), how much minutes beyond the free cost (and to
where - do you call a particular country a lot or not), and so on.

Post by Roderick Stewart
BT and Zen are just two companies I happen to know about that offer
both internet and VOIP phone. There are probably others, but don't
assume that they all do.

And voipfone at least - probably others - offer VoIP only. (1.50 a month
including 0 minutes, 5.00 including IIRR 100, and other packages.)

Post by Roderick Stewart
Rod.

John

[Max Demian]

Post by Roderick Stewart

Post by Max Demian
I currently have my landline from BT and Internet (ADSL2+) from PlusNet.
Does anyone know how they will deal with the change to digital phone?
Like, who will provide the new router and will it have a socket for an
analogue phone?

I don't think they will. Currently Plusnet don't seem to offer a VOIP
service of their own, so if you stay with Plusnet and upgrade to fibre
you would have to subscribe to a VOIP service from somebody else, and
probably have to obtain extra equipment to use it.
If your landline phone is vital to you, the simplest way would seem to
be to change both internet and landline to another service provider
that *does* offer a VOIP service, then upgrade to fibre. It's not the
only way, but it seems simplest to get all your communication services
from the same company.
BT and Zen are just two companies I happen to know about that offer
both internet and VOIP phone. There are probably others, but don't
assume that they all do.

I can manage without a landline phone but someone has to maintain the
physical landline. Perhaps PlusNet will do it (indirectly) as they do
currently offer landlines on a "local loop" basis.

I do want to keep PlusNet as my ISP for the email address and webspace
they provide (FOC), plus Usenet, though others provide the latter (such
as ES that I mostly use currently).

[charles]

Post by Max Demian

Post by J. P. Gilliver

Post by John Williamson

Post by charles
With landlines about to vanish this is not a concern. I am told that when I
move to VOIP, an app will allow me to pick up VOIP calls on my mobile.
Problem solved.

The app can already be installed on your mobile if you set up a VOIP
account on your broadband and have a router with a Wifi connection.

The VoIP account doesn't have to be with the same provider as your
broadband. (In the case of PlusNet, they're still saying they're not
offering it - they'll move you to BT, though [part of the same company,
though most of the time they operate separately] if you want.)

I currently have my landline from BT and Internet (ADSL2+) from PlusNet.
Does anyone know how they will deal with the change to digital phone?
Like, who will provide the new router and will it have a socket for an
analogue phone? Will I be "encouraged" to switch to fibre of some
flavour, and will this be FTTC, FTTN or what? ATM the (copper) phone
connections are embedded in the walls of the block of flats I live in,
so FTTP would not be very nice, as in wires laid on the ground and holes
drilled in walls. (A neighbour in the same block has a CityFibre
connection done in this way.)

As I understand it, you simply need a "phone adaptor" plugged into a
network output of your router. Yes, you might get a new router with the
adaptor incorporated, but that's not essential.

[J. P. Gilliver]

In message <***@candehope.me.uk> at Thu, 7 Mar 2024
13:30:03, charles <***@candehope.me.uk> writes
[]

Post by charles
As I understand it, you simply need a "phone adaptor" plugged into a
network output of your router. Yes, you might get a new router with the
adaptor incorporated, but that's not essential.

For the _technical_ requirement, yes. You also need a VoIP _service_,
which your broadband provider may or may not provide (PlusNet at present
are not planning to).

For another premises I know of where BT provide both anyway, I've seen a
letter suggesting the transition will be fairly seamless - it's just a
"something will happen, we'll tell you more nearer the time" letter at
the moment, but I presume a new router (or adapter) will be required, as
the existing router there doesn't have any unusual sockets on it.

[Roderick Stewart]

Post by J. P. Gilliver
[]

Post by charles
As I understand it, you simply need a "phone adaptor" plugged into a
network output of your router. Yes, you might get a new router with the
adaptor incorporated, but that's not essential.

For the _technical_ requirement, yes. You also need a VoIP _service_,
which your broadband provider may or may not provide (PlusNet at present
are not planning to).
For another premises I know of where BT provide both anyway, I've seen a
letter suggesting the transition will be fairly seamless - it's just a
"something will happen, we'll tell you more nearer the time" letter at
the moment, but I presume a new router (or adapter) will be required, as
the existing router there doesn't have any unusual sockets on it.

Yes, that's what happens. I've helped to set up such a system for
somebody and there wasn't much to it, the only initial setting up
being to reconnect all wi-fi devices to the new code.

The new router, or "hub" as BT call it, does have a phone socket on
the back, which worked straight away with the existing phone, but it
can also function as a DECT base station with their own handsets, so
you can have one less box plugged into the mains. Two handsets were
provided with this setup, and they worked alongside the old plugged-in
phone, but even though both types of phone were BT ones, there didn't
seem to be a quick way of transferring the stored phone numbers from
the old to the new, so I just sat down with both phones and copied the
numbers across by typing them in. Then we unplugged the old phone.

Rod.

[JMB99]

Post by Roderick Stewart
The new router, or "hub" as BT call it, does have a phone socket on
the back, which worked straight away with the existing phone, but it
can also function as a DECT base station with their own handsets, so
you can have one less box plugged into the mains.

I understood that BT will enable the sockets remotely when the
changeover comes.

I think remember that an earlier BT hub had a DECT base station
incorporated into it with a different telephone number using VOIP. I
think there was a charger base incorporated for one of the DECT handsets.

[J. P. Gilliver]

[]

Post by Roderick Stewart

Post by J. P. Gilliver
For another premises I know of where BT provide both anyway, I've seen a
letter suggesting the transition will be fairly seamless - it's just a
"something will happen, we'll tell you more nearer the time" letter at
the moment, but I presume a new router (or adapter) will be required, as
the existing router there doesn't have any unusual sockets on it.

Yes, that's what happens. I've helped to set up such a system for
somebody and there wasn't much to it, the only initial setting up
being to reconnect all wi-fi devices to the new code.

These days, where households have several wifi-connected devices, it
surprises me that people do that, rather than changing the one new
router to the old wifi ID and key. (Also, can use a personalised wifi
ID.) [I've yet to encounter a router where you can't change those.]

Post by Roderick Stewart
The new router, or "hub" as BT call it, does have a phone socket on

Probably a better name, though still not completely ... when discussing
with US people, I always have to explain that we in UK _mostly_ just
have one device, that serves the function of MoDem, router, switch, and
wifi base station. And we (because our industry does) call this combined
box a router.

Post by Roderick Stewart
the back, which worked straight away with the existing phone, but it
can also function as a DECT base station with their own handsets, so
you can have one less box plugged into the mains. Two handsets were

The BT "router" at the BT household I know _doesn't_ have any different
sockets, so will presumably need replacing.

Post by Roderick Stewart
provided with this setup, and they worked alongside the old plugged-in
phone, but even though both types of phone were BT ones, there didn't
seem to be a quick way of transferring the stored phone numbers from
the old to the new, so I just sat down with both phones and copied the
numbers across by typing them in. Then we unplugged the old phone.

Presumably under VoIP, there'll probably be the option to store your
numbers remotely, and/or in the "router". (Yes, with all the security
concerns that involves, but I expect most people will accept those for
the convenience.)

Post by Roderick Stewart
Rod.

John

[John Williamson]

Post by J. P. Gilliver
Probably a better name, though still not completely ... when discussing
with US people, I always have to explain that we in UK _mostly_ just
have one device, that serves the function of MoDem, router, switch, and
wifi base station. And we (because our industry does) call this combined
box a router.

Not to be confused with a router, which is a tool for mangling wood.

[charles]

Post by John Williamson

Post by J. P. Gilliver
Probably a better name, though still not completely ... when discussing
with US people, I always have to explain that we in UK _mostly_ just
have one device, that serves the function of MoDem, router, switch, and
wifi base station. And we (because our industry does) call this combined
box a router.

Not to be confused with a router, which is a tool for mangling wood.

which might be why in the US the computer type is pronounced a "ROWTER"

[J. P. Gilliver]

Post by charles

Post by John Williamson

Post by J. P. Gilliver
Probably a better name, though still not completely ... when discussing
with US people, I always have to explain that we in UK _mostly_ just
have one device, that serves the function of MoDem, router, switch, and
wifi base station. And we (because our industry does) call this combined
box a router.

Not to be confused with a router, which is a tool for mangling wood.

which might be why in the US the computer type is pronounced a "ROWTER"

Oh. That's how I pronounce the woodworking one. Do they pronounce route
- a line on a map - the way I pronounce rout (a significant defeat)?

[J. P. Gilliver]

Post by John Williamson

Post by J. P. Gilliver
Probably a better name, though still not completely ... when discussing
with US people, I always have to explain that we in UK _mostly_ just
have one device, that serves the function of MoDem, router, switch, and
wifi base station. And we (because our industry does) call this combined
box a router.

Not to be confused with a router, which is a tool for mangling wood.

Indeed (though pronounced differently - ours is roota, the woodworking
one is row-ta [row as in argument, not rowboat]).
Another woodworking thing is a profiling tool - despite what some
software writers think; when I hear someone (such as a politician) has
been profiled, I may be pleased, depending on whether I like them or
not.

[JMB99]

Post by John Williamson
If, like many people, you use only cell based comms, (Now cheaper than
landline and which are not locked to any particular location) you will
wonder what all the fuss is about.

Any listener to radio phone-ins and radio news programmes will know just
reliable VOIP is!

[Tweed]

Post by JMB99

Post by John Williamson
If, like many people, you use only cell based comms, (Now cheaper than
landline and which are not locked to any particular location) you will
wonder what all the fuss is about.

Any listener to radio phone-ins and radio news programmes will know just
reliable VOIP is!

That’s more a function of a poor quality communication link rather than
VOIP as a technology.

[JMB99]

Post by Tweed
That’s more a function of a poor quality communication link rather than
VOIP as a technology.

Does not matter what the cause is if you cannot communicate with people
because of it.

Occasionally the person in the studio will give up and connect by
landline and straight away get a perfect connection.

[tony sayer]

In article <usbvjp$uv9g$***@dont-email.me>, JMB99 <***@nospam.net>
scribeth thus

Post by JMB99

Post by Tweed
That’s more a function of a poor quality communication link rather than
VOIP as a technology.

Does not matter what the cause is if you cannot communicate with people
because of it.
Occasionally the person in the studio will give up and connect by
landline and straight away get a perfect connection.

Most likely the mobile fone signal in the studio is very weak some even
have metal plates around them and foil coated fibreboard and the like...

[John Williamson]

Post by JMB99

Post by John Williamson
If, like many people, you use only cell based comms, (Now cheaper than
landline and which are not locked to any particular location) you will
wonder what all the fuss is about.

Any listener to radio phone-ins and radio news programmes will know just
reliable VOIP is!

The problem isn't the VOIP element, it is the cellular system it is
using. A lot of reporters seem to be calling in using Zoom or a similar
technology over a poor quality connection. If they made a standard voice
call instead, they need less bandwidth and the error correction seems to
be better.

Back in the day, there used to be a technician on all BBC phone in
programmes who would call you back after you called in and check the
line quality before you went on air. Nowadays, it sounds as if they just
put you on hold until it's your turn and hope for the best.

Tciao for Now!

John.

[tony sayer]

In article <usbu2d$uv9g$***@dont-email.me>, JMB99 <***@nospam.net>
scribeth thus

Post by JMB99

Post by John Williamson
If, like many people, you use only cell based comms, (Now cheaper than
landline and which are not locked to any particular location) you will
wonder what all the fuss is about.

Any listener to radio phone-ins and radio news programmes will know just
reliable VOIP is!

Been using to for years and can't fault it!....

[J. P. Gilliver]

Post by Brian Gaff
No I men the old analogue walk about phones. They simply used 49Mhz and just
at the high frequency end ofmedium wave. They had no protection against
eavesdroppers as they used narrow band FM.

Ah yes. I think I still have one (though I usually use a corded 'phone).

Post by Brian Gaff
I do also admit in its day, owning a Rabbit system With my base station up
high in the building I found in places I could get a mile out of them. The
idea was also that you had rbbit phone points around the place and you could
also communicate via those. For what it was, it worked for many years as a
cordless digital mobile. I don't know what protocols it used but the
frequencies were high. After a while phone got shut down of course as nobody
wanted to pay a connection rate to the company which ran them.

I remember seeing the base stations at motorway services and the like. I
think they continued to work as a home cordless after they turned off
the network.

Post by Brian Gaff
T
Are there any mobiles around now which can be used the house on a landline
and as a mobile?
Brian

Good question! I'm not aware of any. Though when we switch to VoIP, I
think it'll become moot, in that you'll be able to use your VoIPphone
wherever you can get internet (at call costs of whatever your VoIPphone
provider - who doesn't have to be your broadband provider, and in the
case of PlusNet certainly won't be). The one I looked at (VoIPfone) was
IIRR 1p/minute (or 7p/minute to UK mobiles!), though had packages
similar to mobile ones of so many minutes a month (to both land and
mobiles) for a monthly fee (e. g. IIRR 100 minutes for the fiver-a-month
one). (2p/min to USA, including USA mobiles, i. e. yes, outside monthly
package minutes, UK mobiles cost more to call than US ones.)

[Brian Gaff]

That sounds daft. You might as well call via whatsapp then.

Yes on Rabbit, they would have gone on working but I got fed up with
eternally replacing the rechargeable batteries as one always lost capacity
before the other one did. Nickel-Metal Hydrides were in mine but I don't
think double A sized ones were as high capacity as the more modern ones and
had a habit of self discharging. Eventually the legends wore off the keys
and some keys needed to be wobbled to make contact, they were heavy too.
Brian
--
--:
This newsgroup posting comes to you directly from...
The Sofa of Brian Gaff...
***@blueyonder.co.uk
Blind user, so no pictures please
Note this Signature is meaningless.!

Post by J. P. Gilliver

Post by Brian Gaff
No I men the old analogue walk about phones. They simply used 49Mhz and just
at the high frequency end ofmedium wave. They had no protection against
eavesdroppers as they used narrow band FM.

Ah yes. I think I still have one (though I usually use a corded 'phone).

Post by Brian Gaff
I do also admit in its day, owning a Rabbit system With my base station up
high in the building I found in places I could get a mile out of them. The
idea was also that you had rbbit phone points around the place and you could
also communicate via those. For what it was, it worked for many years as a
cordless digital mobile. I don't know what protocols it used but the
frequencies were high. After a while phone got shut down of course as nobody
wanted to pay a connection rate to the company which ran them.

I remember seeing the base stations at motorway services and the like. I
think they continued to work as a home cordless after they turned off the
network.

Post by Brian Gaff
T
Are there any mobiles around now which can be used the house on a landline
and as a mobile?
Brian

Good question! I'm not aware of any. Though when we switch to VoIP, I
think it'll become moot, in that you'll be able to use your VoIPphone
wherever you can get internet (at call costs of whatever your VoIPphone
provider - who doesn't have to be your broadband provider, and in the case
of PlusNet certainly won't be). The one I looked at (VoIPfone) was IIRR
1p/minute (or 7p/minute to UK mobiles!), though had packages similar to
mobile ones of so many minutes a month (to both land and mobiles) for a
monthly fee (e. g. IIRR 100 minutes for the fiver-a-month one). (2p/min to
USA, including USA mobiles, i. e. yes, outside monthly package minutes, UK
mobiles cost more to call than US ones.)
--
The first draft was "flick me all over with ..." (RT Chtr 2020)

[J. P. Gilliver]

Post by Brian Gaff
That sounds daft. You might as well call via whatsapp then.
Yes on Rabbit, they would have gone on working but I got fed up with
eternally replacing the rechargeable batteries as one always lost capacity
before the other one did. Nickel-Metal Hydrides were in mine but I don't
think double A sized ones were as high capacity as the more modern ones and
had a habit of self discharging. Eventually the legends wore off the keys
and some keys needed to be wobbled to make contact, they were heavy too.
Brian

There are now two sorts of nickel metal hydride cells. In AA size, the
ordinary sort are pushing 3 amp hours (I refuse to continue to use
milliamp-hours now we're so far past 1 - you can get 1 in triple A cells
now!), though seem not to quite reach it - 2.95 seems common. The other
sort are low self-discharge - retain 80-90% capacity even after a year -
and those seem to be about 2.5 Ah capacity; the practical difference
therefore favours the latter sort, for nearly all purposes (maybe people
using high-discharge _regularly_ might go for the other sort just for
the high capacity - professional photographers, modellers). The low
self-discharge sort are distinguishable by usually being sold charged -
"ready to use"; there are several known makes (or rather models, from
known makes), the one I can think of being eneloop though I can't
remember who from, but Lidl also sell them occasionally (they also
occasionally sell the ordinary sort, so look for the "ready to use" or
similar wording).

[John Williamson]

Post by J. P. Gilliver

Post by Brian Gaff
That sounds daft. You might as well call via whatsapp then.
Yes on Rabbit, they would have gone on working but I got fed up with
eternally replacing the rechargeable batteries as one always lost capacity
before the other one did. Nickel-Metal Hydrides were in mine but I don't
think double A sized ones were as high capacity as the more modern ones and
had a habit of self discharging. Eventually the legends wore off the keys
and some keys needed to be wobbled to make contact, they were heavy too.
Brian

There are now two sorts of nickel metal hydride cells. In AA size, the
ordinary sort are pushing 3 amp hours (I refuse to continue to use
milliamp-hours now we're so far past 1 - you can get 1 in triple A cells
now!), though seem not to quite reach it - 2.95 seems common. The other
sort are low self-discharge - retain 80-90% capacity even after a year -
and those seem to be about 2.5 Ah capacity; the practical difference
therefore favours the latter sort, for nearly all purposes (maybe people
using high-discharge _regularly_ might go for the other sort just for
the high capacity - professional photographers, modellers). The low
self-discharge sort are distinguishable by usually being sold charged -
"ready to use"; there are several known makes (or rather models, from
known makes), the one I can think of being eneloop though I can't
remember who from, but Lidl also sell them occasionally (they also
occasionally sell the ordinary sort, so look for the "ready to use" or
similar wording).

Replacing time expired NiMH or NiCd cells is normally easy. Open the
cover, replace the useless cells and you're good for another year or
two. My cordless landline phone was on its third or fourth set when I
moved on to the boat, so couldn't make use of it any longer. They can
even be replaced by primary cells in an emergency. They are also easily
recyclable.

The lithium batteries are usually permanently built in, with the cells
custom designed to fit and welded in place. This means that when they do
eventually fail, the device is scrap. For consumer devices, they are
usually sized to give the minimum acceptable run time between charges,
so for extended use, you need either a spare device or an external power
pack. They are also currently not easy to recycle, though there are a
few places which now do it.

[J. P. Gilliver]

[]

Post by John Williamson

Post by J. P. Gilliver
There are now two sorts of nickel metal hydride cells. In AA size, the
ordinary sort are pushing 3 amp hours (I refuse to continue to use

[]

Post by John Williamson

Post by J. P. Gilliver
sort are low self-discharge - retain 80-90% capacity even after a year -
and those seem to be about 2.5 Ah capacity; the practical difference

[]

Post by John Williamson
Replacing time expired NiMH or NiCd cells is normally easy. Open the
cover, replace the useless cells and you're good for another year or
two. My cordless landline phone was on its third or fourth set when I
moved on to the boat, so couldn't make use of it any longer. They can
even be replaced by primary cells in an emergency. They are also easily
recyclable.

I probably shouldn't have brought up the two sorts of NiMH in this
context, as for cordless home handsets self-discharge isn't really a
problem, as they're mostly placed back on a charger when the call is
finished (though I guess some people don't). As you say, it's more a
matter of replacing cells when they no longer hold much charge.

Post by John Williamson
The lithium batteries are usually permanently built in, with the cells
custom designed to fit and welded in place. This means that when they

Though I think the EC at least have legislated against that - isn't the
latest iPhone different to previous ones in that respect?

Post by John Williamson
do eventually fail, the device is scrap. For consumer devices, they are
usually sized to give the minimum acceptable run time between charges,
so for extended use, you need either a spare device or an external
power pack. They are also currently not easy to recycle, though there
are a few places which now do it.

[John Williamson]

Post by J. P. Gilliver

Post by John Williamson
The lithium batteries are usually permanently built in, with the cells
custom designed to fit and welded in place. This means that when they

Though I think the EC at least have legislated against that - isn't the
latest iPhone different to previous ones in that respect?

The EU repair rules mean that Apple now have to sell you the tools
needed to replace the battery, rather than only letting their approved
workshops have them. The battery itself is still glued inside the case
using glue which can only be melted by a suitable heat source.

[Brian Gaff]

Not so sure about that. My apple is apparently like that, but the newer ones
are apparently easer to get into and change the batteries. I don't know
about other makes, Its true though that a battery for one model may not fit
another even from the same company. I also think Apple have stopped
including a special design that stops third party screens from working. Mind
you to crack that screen you are obviously in need of a military spec phone.
Its pretty tough even if you don't have a case. I always have had mine in a
case. Wy would you spend so much on a phone and make it so easy to
damage.I'd also like to see a wall wart packaged with usb items again, as
there are so many naff ones on sale it cannot be good for thee phone. often
you can hear the buzz from the phone when you connect a cheap one.
Brian
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Post by J. P. Gilliver

Post by John Williamson
The lithium batteries are usually permanently built in, with the cells
custom designed to fit and welded in place. This means that when they

Though I think the EC at least have legislated against that - isn't the
latest iPhone different to previous ones in that respect?

The EU repair rules mean that Apple now have to sell you the tools needed
to replace the battery, rather than only letting their approved workshops
have them. The battery itself is still glued inside the case using glue
which can only be melted by a suitable heat source.
--
Tciao for Now!
John.

[Roderick Stewart]

There's so little you can do to fix a smartphone now, it's usually not
even possible to replace the battery, and they often contain so much
essential personal info you wouldn't want to let it out of your grasp
for someone else to fix it, so my policy for smartphones is roughly
this:-

1. Don't buy an Apple one.

2. Don't buy a stupidly expensive one, or one that's so cheap that
it's rubbish. Get a middle range one with a decent camera and mentally
divide the price by the number of years you expect to keep it.

3. Don't regard it as a phone with a camera included, but as a camera
with a phone included, and look after it as you would a camera.
Hopefully it will last long enough for the cost per year to be
reasonable even if it eventually becomes effectively useless. I still
have the first camera I was ever given, which is the one my father
saved up his pocket money to buy when he was a boy in the 1930s, and
I'm sure it would still work if I put film in it, but today's
technology is often as ephemeral as the software that drives it. Such
is life.

Rod.

Post by Brian Gaff
Not so sure about that. My apple is apparently like that, but the newer ones
are apparently easer to get into and change the batteries. I don't know
about other makes, Its true though that a battery for one model may not fit
another even from the same company. I also think Apple have stopped
including a special design that stops third party screens from working. Mind
you to crack that screen you are obviously in need of a military spec phone.
Its pretty tough even if you don't have a case. I always have had mine in a
case. Wy would you spend so much on a phone and make it so easy to
damage.I'd also like to see a wall wart packaged with usb items again, as
there are so many naff ones on sale it cannot be good for thee phone. often
you can hear the buzz from the phone when you connect a cheap one.
Brian

[J. P. Gilliver]

Post by Roderick Stewart
There's so little you can do to fix a smartphone now, it's usually not
even possible to replace the battery, and they often contain so much

That's what we've been discussing - a recent EC directive has forced
them (even Apple) to make the cell replaceable by other than the
manufacturer. (Of course, I'm sure they all use different shapes and
sizes, but at least you _can_ in theory replace it.)

Post by Roderick Stewart
essential personal info you wouldn't want to let it out of your grasp
for someone else to fix it, so my policy for smartphones is roughly
this:-
1. Don't buy an Apple one.

Mine too, but mainly on expense and walled-garden grounds, assuming the
EC directive works.

Post by Roderick Stewart
2. Don't buy a stupidly expensive one, or one that's so cheap that
it's rubbish. Get a middle range one with a decent camera and mentally
divide the price by the number of years you expect to keep it.

What would you say _is_ the life of a (new) smartphone? Last time I paid
much attention (I only have a dumbphone at the moment), I got the
impression it was 3 years or less, which I resent. Seems (for Android
'phones) you're at the mercy of the manufacturer whether they upgrade
the Android version, and for how long. Of course, non-upgraded ones
don't stop working, but new "app"s won't work with older Androids -
anything more than 12-18 months was the impression I got last time I
paid any attention; is that still so, or have things got more sensible?
(Or less?)

Post by Roderick Stewart
3. Don't regard it as a phone with a camera included, but as a camera
with a phone included, and look after it as you would a camera.
Hopefully it will last long enough for the cost per year to be
reasonable even if it eventually becomes effectively useless. I still

I use a separate camera. Last time I had a 'phone with a camera in, it -
although it had ridiculously more pixels than my separate camera - was
significantly inferior; especially for photographing flowers.

Post by Roderick Stewart
have the first camera I was ever given, which is the one my father
saved up his pocket money to buy when he was a boy in the 1930s, and
I'm sure it would still work if I put film in it, but today's
technology is often as ephemeral as the software that drives it. Such
is life.

My old standard 8 Bell and Howell (similar or same model to Mr.
Zapruder's) would I'm sure still work; when I was showing it to someone
a few years ago I moved the "take" lever, and was startled when it made
a whirring noise - it must have been decades since I'd wound it.

Post by Roderick Stewart
Rod.

Post by Brian Gaff
Not so sure about that. My apple is apparently like that, but the newer ones
are apparently easer to get into and change the batteries. I don't know
about other makes, Its true though that a battery for one model may not fit
another even from the same company. I also think Apple have stopped

But at least in theory you _can_ change it without having to take it to
an Apple store.
[]

Post by Roderick Stewart

Post by Brian Gaff
damage.I'd also like to see a wall wart packaged with usb items again, as

Agreed.

Post by Roderick Stewart

Post by Brian Gaff
there are so many naff ones on sale it cannot be good for thee phone. often
you can hear the buzz from the phone when you connect a cheap one.
Brian

I wonder how long before most mains sockets have then built in (and how
good/bad those are, and how easy to replace if they fail).

I remember a suggestion - a decade or two ago? - that new-build houses
would come wired with mains AC and a lower voltage DC; I think at that
time 12V was the suggested level (I remember my school physics labs had
that). I guess 5V via USB A sockets is the modern equivalent.

[Brian Gaff]

Well, My apple XR is now quite old and I'm told that the next update of ios
is the last one. So 7 years seems not to be too bad and its still on the old
battery. OK it was one of the cheapest Iphones and it only had an lcd
screen, but having turned it off its exactly the same to a blind person as
one with a better display. Androids are not supported as long as this.
Admittedly you have no lidar and the new wide range location chip, but it
does not get hot and can be left locked for a couple of days without a
recharge. Most of the problem with battery life seems to be to do with apps
and processes that do not need to run, but the makers make the default
always on, like Tile and gps for example You don't need these running when
all the phone is doing is getting emails and texts from your carrier.
Brian
--
--:
This newsgroup posting comes to you directly from...
The Sofa of Brian Gaff...
***@blueyonder.co.uk
Blind user, so no pictures please
Note this Signature is meaningless.!

Post by Roderick Stewart
There's so little you can do to fix a smartphone now, it's usually not
even possible to replace the battery, and they often contain so much

That's what we've been discussing - a recent EC directive has forced them
(even Apple) to make the cell replaceable by other than the manufacturer.
(Of course, I'm sure they all use different shapes and sizes, but at least
you _can_ in theory replace it.)

Post by Roderick Stewart
essential personal info you wouldn't want to let it out of your grasp
for someone else to fix it, so my policy for smartphones is roughly
this:-
1. Don't buy an Apple one.

Mine too, but mainly on expense and walled-garden grounds, assuming the EC
directive works.

Post by Roderick Stewart
2. Don't buy a stupidly expensive one, or one that's so cheap that
it's rubbish. Get a middle range one with a decent camera and mentally
divide the price by the number of years you expect to keep it.

What would you say _is_ the life of a (new) smartphone? Last time I paid
much attention (I only have a dumbphone at the moment), I got the
impression it was 3 years or less, which I resent. Seems (for Android
'phones) you're at the mercy of the manufacturer whether they upgrade the
Android version, and for how long. Of course, non-upgraded ones don't stop
working, but new "app"s won't work with older Androids - anything more
than 12-18 months was the impression I got last time I paid any attention;
is that still so, or have things got more sensible? (Or less?)

Post by Roderick Stewart
3. Don't regard it as a phone with a camera included, but as a camera
with a phone included, and look after it as you would a camera.
Hopefully it will last long enough for the cost per year to be
reasonable even if it eventually becomes effectively useless. I still

I use a separate camera. Last time I had a 'phone with a camera in, it -
although it had ridiculously more pixels than my separate camera - was
significantly inferior; especially for photographing flowers.

Post by Roderick Stewart
have the first camera I was ever given, which is the one my father
saved up his pocket money to buy when he was a boy in the 1930s, and
I'm sure it would still work if I put film in it, but today's
technology is often as ephemeral as the software that drives it. Such
is life.

My old standard 8 Bell and Howell (similar or same model to Mr.
Zapruder's) would I'm sure still work; when I was showing it to someone a
few years ago I moved the "take" lever, and was startled when it made a
whirring noise - it must have been decades since I'd wound it.

Post by Roderick Stewart
Rod.

Post by Brian Gaff
Not so sure about that. My apple is apparently like that, but the newer ones
are apparently easer to get into and change the batteries. I don't know
about other makes, Its true though that a battery for one model may not fit
another even from the same company. I also think Apple have stopped

But at least in theory you _can_ change it without having to take it to an
Apple store.
[]

Post by Roderick Stewart

Post by Brian Gaff
damage.I'd also like to see a wall wart packaged with usb items again, as

Agreed.

Post by Roderick Stewart

Post by Brian Gaff
there are so many naff ones on sale it cannot be good for thee phone. often
you can hear the buzz from the phone when you connect a cheap one.
Brian

I wonder how long before most mains sockets have then built in (and how
good/bad those are, and how easy to replace if they fail).
I remember a suggestion - a decade or two ago? - that new-build houses
would come wired with mains AC and a lower voltage DC; I think at that
time 12V was the suggested level (I remember my school physics labs had
that). I guess 5V via USB A sockets is the modern equivalent.
--
The first banjo solo I played was actually just a series of mistakes. In fact
it was all the mistakes I knew at the time. - Tim Dowling, RT2015/6/20-26

[Brian Gaff]

I think the tile app has started to be used to locate your tiles using other
peoples phones as it talks about the tile network, so this is probably to
compete with Apple tags that do the same. However it does seem to be power
hungry if you allow it all the time. I've also found that cash point finder
tends to use location services when its on and googles apps as well.
Brian
--
--:
This newsgroup posting comes to you directly from...
The Sofa of Brian Gaff...
***@blueyonder.co.uk
Blind user, so no pictures please
Note this Signature is meaningless.!

Post by Brian Gaff
Well, My apple XR is now quite old and I'm told that the next update of
ios is the last one. So 7 years seems not to be too bad and its still on
the old battery. OK it was one of the cheapest Iphones and it only had an
lcd screen, but having turned it off its exactly the same to a blind
person as one with a better display. Androids are not supported as long
as this. Admittedly you have no lidar and the new wide range location
chip, but it does not get hot and can be left locked for a couple of days
without a recharge. Most of the problem with battery life seems to be to
do with apps and processes that do not need to run, but the makers make
the default always on, like Tile and gps for example You don't need these
running when all the phone is doing is getting emails and texts from your
carrier.
Brian
--
This newsgroup posting comes to you directly from...
The Sofa of Brian Gaff...
Blind user, so no pictures please
Note this Signature is meaningless.!

Post by Roderick Stewart
There's so little you can do to fix a smartphone now, it's usually not
even possible to replace the battery, and they often contain so much

That's what we've been discussing - a recent EC directive has forced them
(even Apple) to make the cell replaceable by other than the manufacturer.
(Of course, I'm sure they all use different shapes and sizes, but at
least you _can_ in theory replace it.)

Post by Roderick Stewart
essential personal info you wouldn't want to let it out of your grasp
for someone else to fix it, so my policy for smartphones is roughly
this:-
1. Don't buy an Apple one.

Mine too, but mainly on expense and walled-garden grounds, assuming the
EC directive works.

Post by Roderick Stewart
2. Don't buy a stupidly expensive one, or one that's so cheap that
it's rubbish. Get a middle range one with a decent camera and mentally
divide the price by the number of years you expect to keep it.

What would you say _is_ the life of a (new) smartphone? Last time I paid
much attention (I only have a dumbphone at the moment), I got the
impression it was 3 years or less, which I resent. Seems (for Android
'phones) you're at the mercy of the manufacturer whether they upgrade the
Android version, and for how long. Of course, non-upgraded ones don't
stop working, but new "app"s won't work with older Androids - anything
more than 12-18 months was the impression I got last time I paid any
attention; is that still so, or have things got more sensible? (Or less?)

Post by Roderick Stewart
3. Don't regard it as a phone with a camera included, but as a camera
with a phone included, and look after it as you would a camera.
Hopefully it will last long enough for the cost per year to be
reasonable even if it eventually becomes effectively useless. I still

I use a separate camera. Last time I had a 'phone with a camera in, it -
although it had ridiculously more pixels than my separate camera - was
significantly inferior; especially for photographing flowers.

Post by Roderick Stewart
have the first camera I was ever given, which is the one my father
saved up his pocket money to buy when he was a boy in the 1930s, and
I'm sure it would still work if I put film in it, but today's
technology is often as ephemeral as the software that drives it. Such
is life.

My old standard 8 Bell and Howell (similar or same model to Mr.
Zapruder's) would I'm sure still work; when I was showing it to someone a
few years ago I moved the "take" lever, and was startled when it made a
whirring noise - it must have been decades since I'd wound it.

Post by Roderick Stewart
Rod.

Post by Brian Gaff
Not so sure about that. My apple is apparently like that, but the newer ones
are apparently easer to get into and change the batteries. I don't know
about other makes, Its true though that a battery for one model may not fit
another even from the same company. I also think Apple have stopped

But at least in theory you _can_ change it without having to take it to
an Apple store.
[]

Post by Roderick Stewart

Post by Brian Gaff
damage.I'd also like to see a wall wart packaged with usb items again, as

Agreed.

Post by Roderick Stewart

Post by Brian Gaff
there are so many naff ones on sale it cannot be good for thee phone. often
you can hear the buzz from the phone when you connect a cheap one.
Brian

I wonder how long before most mains sockets have then built in (and how
good/bad those are, and how easy to replace if they fail).
I remember a suggestion - a decade or two ago? - that new-build houses
would come wired with mains AC and a lower voltage DC; I think at that
time 12V was the suggested level (I remember my school physics labs had
that). I guess 5V via USB A sockets is the modern equivalent.
--
The first banjo solo I played was actually just a series of mistakes. In fact
it was all the mistakes I knew at the time. - Tim Dowling, RT2015/6/20-26